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Old 06-16-2010, 06:35 PM   #271
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Frankly, I think that gay people that voluntarily remain in a church that officially hates them ("homosexuality is an ideology of evil" is official church policy) need their heads examined.



Random piece of trivia. Neil Tennant, the singer in the Pet Shop Boys, was raised Roman Catholic and once considered entering the priesthood.
In the words of Dara O'Briain "once your in the Catholic church, you can never really leave. Even if you run off and joined the Taliban, you'd simply be considered a bad Catholic. There's no opt out website."
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Old 06-17-2010, 03:29 PM   #272
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i am *very* nervous about predicting anything, but anti-gay queen Maggie Gallagher appears to have given up hope:

Quote:
"Chuck Cooper is a heckuva lawyer. At stake in this case is the future of marriage in all 50 states, and he's right that this attempt to shut down the debate by constitutionalizing gay marriage will backfire. Americans have a right to vote for marriage. Ted Olson doesn't seem to understand the argument, and judging from today's exchanges neither does Judge Walker. I expect Judge Walker will overrule Prop 8. But millions of Americans do understand why marriage is the union of husband and wife and I believe the majority of the Supreme Court will as well."

Prop8Case.com

going to be very interesting.

from all the media that i can find, which, admittedly, is very pro-gay, it seems that Olsen/Boies absolutely demolished the defense.

but we'll see.

it could get really nasty, because the judge is gay. expect the anti-gay crowd to pounce on that if they are displeased with the ruling. already, Maggie is focusing not on Olsen/Boises but on Walker, who by all other accounts, has been superb.
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:14 PM   #273
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Thanks for the update, Irvine, that's very interesting. Especially the details of the whole situation (oh, yes, I can fully believe the anti-gay crowd will claim a bias should they lose this fight). If that's indeed true that Olson and Boies put up one hell of a fight and made an incredibly strong case, then good on them for that, that's fantastic . They mentioned this story on the news last night, about how it could potentially go to the Supreme Court. It'll be an interesting day if and when that happens.

Fingers crossed that this leads to good news. Here's hoping, Irvine .

Angela
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:30 PM   #274
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it could get really nasty, because the judge is gay.
Are you shitting me?

Did you see the article in the LA Times this morning? He was asking very pointed question of the anti attorneys. If he rules in favor of the Constitution, he'll be an "activist" judge, of course.
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:01 PM   #275
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it could get really nasty, because the judge is gay. expect the anti-gay crowd to pounce on that if they are displeased with the ruling.
It's like letting a black judge hear a civil rights case or something.
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:51 PM   #276
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it's quite clear that the reproduction argument has no merit. biological children are not a requirement for marriage.

if the anti-gay pro-h8 people wanted to make their stand, it should be over the whole "getting to vote on the rights of a minority/will of the voters" thing.

at least in my stupid opinion.

it really is nice how well Olsen/Boise have laid out the whole animus thing. it's patently obvious that the motivations behind Prop 8 were inspired by the will of the voters to deliberately persecute a minority.
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:55 PM   #277
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From the article I read, and most of the arguments here, it seems that all they have is "Nuh-uh."
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:21 PM   #278
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From the article I read, and most of the arguments here, it seems that all they have is "Nuh-uh."


which is another word for animus. the failure to recognize gays as fully human and choosing to view them as defective heterosexuals.
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:44 PM   #279
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Sigh.
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:36 AM   #280
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well, come on. we can't biologically produce children. with one another.

clearly, you're defective if you cannot have children of your own.

even worse if you choose not to.

for shame.
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Old 06-18-2010, 08:02 AM   #281
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It's a choice, not a child?

Wait.

No, that's not it.
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Old 06-18-2010, 11:13 PM   #282
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Gay Marriage Should Be Illegal

YouTube - Gay Marriage Should Be Illegal
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Old 06-19-2010, 10:41 AM   #283
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Old 06-19-2010, 03:43 PM   #284
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But but but... they applaud the gay singers.

That should count for something, right?

Yes. Yes they do. As long as they don't go kissin' no boys on the wholesome AMA's.
Oh, hai, Adam Lambert, I'm Looking At You.
Because The Children Will Be Scarred.
(Even if they really don't even care.)

Because that would mean they're actually, really gay. Most of the time, anyway.
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Old 06-24-2010, 11:08 AM   #285
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Washington Post

CNN documentary 'Gary and Tony' takes big-hearted look at gay parenthood

By Tom Shales
Tuesday, June 22, 2010; C01

They're parents "like anybody else," says a sympathetic soul, but not really. Not quite. If they were like anybody else, these parents wouldn't both be wearing "Proud Dad" caps at the baby shower.

As the title more than implies, "Gary and Tony Have a Baby," a poignant and captivating CNN documentary that debuts Thursday evening, is the story of a family that's both unusual and a sign of the times. It does not, as the cliche goes, "explore all sides of an issue," but instead offers an intimate and affecting portrait of what happens when partners in a same-sex marriage set out to secure for themselves a blessed event, the limits of biology notwithstanding.

Sensitively but not mawkishly reported by Soledad O'Brien, the hour-long documentary is definitely high-road television -- meaning it's been made as a gesture toward enlightenment and not to grab big ratings, which it probably won't. Not to disparage the Fox News Channel or its right to thrive, but it's hard to imagine Fox doing a documentary as big-hearted and open-minded as this one. Fox docs are virtually always hard-edged, hard-news affairs, including the most recent, "Fox News Reporting: The American Terrorist," an explosive hour about Anwar al-Awlaki, born in the United States but relocated to Yemen for his graduate studies in being rotten. (Other "Fox Reporting" titles that aired this year include "Inside Campaign 2010," and, to commemorate the 40th anniversary, "Summer of Evil: The Manson Murders.")

"Gary and Tony" may be "soft" by comparison, but it's also hard-hitting emotionally. The two men -- Gary Spino and Tony Brown -- face many a bump along the rough road to parenthood. Two New Yorkers in their late 40s who've been living together for 20 years, Spino and Brown must be truly in love or else how could they survive in one of those punishingly puny New York apartments? They're a likable pair if not precisely eloquent. "So cool," one of them says while looking at sonograms of the fetus. "So cool," says the other when they hear the baby is a boy.

So cool? Not "awesome"??

Asked early in the hour why they want to be parents, they come up with the same sort of glib answers, making it sound as if they're trying to be fashionable rather than paternal. But this is a picture medium; shots of Gary and Tony holding newborn Nicholas, and close-ups of their shining eyes as they behold the baby for the first time, are inescapably expressive -- and conclusive.

O'Brien has the men recall the history of their relationship from the beginning, when, like it says in "Some Enchanted Evening," they saw each other "across a crowded room." They had a wedding outside of New York state because the legislature refused to pass a bill acknowledging same-sex marriages. Demonstrators outside the courtroom repeat the canard about gay marriage being a "threat" to the institution, but Gary and Tom justifiably want to know how they are a threat to anybody.

The "threat" argument seems to presuppose that everyone would be homosexual and take up with husbands or wives of their own gender if not for the social strictures placed upon such behavior. And that goes back to the never-ending argument about whether homosexuality is learned or inherited, a "lifestyle" or a genetic predisposition. O'Brien is wise not to rehash all that; it's not a subject that brings out the best in those who never seem to tire of debating it.

You do have to wonder: Could an opponent of same-sex marriage, or even a homophobic extremist, watch the documentary, see Gary and Tony in paternal bliss with their child, and still want to deny them this happiness -- even deny them the right to cohabit? Or, for that matter, to hop into the same sack?

A good-natured Floridian named Holly is the egg donor, although "donor" is not quite the word because she charges the guys $8,000. But another woman has to be employed as the surrogate, to carry the baby to term, and she gets a $30,000 fee (these expenses are in addition to thousands of dollars in legal fees). Cindy, who has a back filled with tattoos, at first finds the male couple "annoying" but later on, they all seem to get along.

When the baby arrives early, and has to be delivered via emergency C-section, Cindy is told she will never be able to have another child (she and husband John -- not their real names -- have two). Her feelings for the baby she gave up grow stronger than she, or the two dads, anticipated, although it appears she was spared a traumatic meltdown. O'Brien might have given us more detail about that.

Asked by the reporter whether they worry about how peers and angry zealots may react to Nicholas when he gets older and attends school, Gary says, "We won't live our lives in fear of what a crazy person will do." That is some kind of courage, isn't it?

"Gary and Tony" is not technically advocacy journalism, but in showing a same-sex couple who successfully navigate the mine field and adopt a baby that one of them helped create, O'Brien makes a case for, at the very least, compassion -- a case that has to be made again and again in this society, or so it seems.

During their courtship, when Gary and Tony were first considering some version of marriage, Gary was appalled to hear a priest rail against same-sex marriage at the church in central Pennsylvania that he attended. Pamphlets were distributed that urged people to "Join the Campaign to Save Marriage in Pennsylvania." Instead of having anyone inveigh against the campaign, the producers simply cut to a tell-tale sign that sits outside the church: "All Are Welcome."

Not really. Not quite.
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