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Old 01-09-2007, 05:36 AM   #31
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Originally posted by Axver
[B]

What I don't get is why libertarians aren't all for anti-smoking laws, as their pro-smoking arguments seem to boil down to "I should be allowed to smoke if I want to!" In actual fact, arguments in both directions employ the same "I should have the liberty to do what I want!" logic, with the 'do what I want' in one case being smoking and in the other case being breathing clean air. However, this is the primary pro-smoking argument, while it is just one of multiple primary anti-smoking arguments. The anti-smoking side has a stronger case and involves the "I should have the liberty to do what I want!" logic the libertarians like to use.
I have never smoked and every member of my immediate family does, most all of my coworkers do and they all know the risks (which I think are overstated to children in a scare the shit out of them young sort of way with a lot of propaganda).

Clean air is not a liberty, the right to do something that will harm you for a chemical rush is, the right to have control over your brain chemistry is, libertarianism does not to demand I must smoke, eat poorly a die at 60 but as a philosophy it should mean that I as an individual have the right to do so if I wish; and that extends over other ilicit drugs, and I would be interested in hearing if the more hedonistic libertarian types agree with legalisation of opioids and ending the war on drugs.

Kids don't smoke; unless you wan't to look cool and fit in
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:55 AM   #32
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My mother died of lung cancer when she was only 60 years-old. She won't be able to share in the joy of my wedding this August. She was a 1-2 pack-a-day smoker.

Enough said?
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:27 AM   #33
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I can understand people trying alcohol or various illegal drugs because quite frankly they feel good. In my experience with cigarettes (I tried them a few times when I was young) though there seems to be nothing pleasurable about smoking them, even if everyone else is.

Does anyone remember getting a good feeling or any kind of pleasure from smoking when they first started? I do get the feeling I'm watching a junkie get a fix when I watch a longtime heavy smoker take a drag after a period without, but what -- other than to fit in -- is the initial appeal? Do some people actually get a kind of high from it?
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:33 AM   #34
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High, no. Something people enjoy, yes, in a similar vein to a glass of wine.

My theory is that for most people it begins to fit into a habitual pattern, but before you can acknowledge that and cease it, the addiction has well and truly taken hold. It is said to be harder to quit than heroin. No idea how accurate that is.
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:35 AM   #35
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Does anyone remember getting a good feeling or any kind of pleasure from smoking when they first started? I do get the feeling I'm watching a junkie get a fix when I watch a longtime heavy smoker take a drag after a period without, but what -- other than to fit in -- is the initial appeal? Do some people actually get a kind of high from it?
Theres a good reason for this, it's the same reason that pharmaceutical companies sponser anti-smoking campaigns and it's all about how to deliver the drug people need.
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:37 AM   #36
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I am 46 years old and I have NEVER had a cigarette in my mouth EVER!.....I'm very proud to say.

The worst thing for me is going out to a club or restaurant and being surrounded by clouds of smoke which totally ruin my evening.

I apologize for sounding preachy....I don't mean to.

I encourage everybody who is trying to quit smoking and I give you a BIG hug.

XXX
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:46 AM   #37
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
It is said to be harder to quit than heroin. No idea how accurate that is.
From my experience (I myself never smoked, but my parents did, and many of my friends did at least for a few weeks, some longer) you can't generally say whether it is easy to quit or not.
It totally depends on the person.
It's like with the start of the addiction. Some can smoke one or two cigarrettes and stop again, others smoke one and are addicted to it.
And with quiting it's the same. My mother e.g. tried to, and went to some hypnosis course to stop, then she went there again, and still she smokes sometimes, I think even every day.
My father decided to stop, and did so.

Many other people are the same, and no one can say only because for him it was easy it would be easy for everybody, as no one can say it would be hard for everybody.

I wouldn't compare it to a drug like heroin or cocaine. Not only because the drugs work totally different, but also because people are reacting to the addiction so differently.


I would be very happy if at least in public places people would stop to smoke and go outside. I'm suffering from a kind of asthma myself, maybe caused by passive smoking, I don't know.
Also, it's not like drinking where the alcohol only gets into your body, but the smoke gets into the body of everyone around the smoker.
Sometimes there are so many smokers in a bar I have to leave because I can't breathe anymore, and my eyes feel dry and hurt. You also can't see the other side of the room because of all this smoke.

Even the best ventilation can't cope with so much smoke.
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:59 AM   #38
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
the right to do something that will harm you for a chemical rush is [a liberty]
But you have no right to do something that will harm others for a chemical rush, and that's what smoking in public settings does. So why are libertarians all for it when it's infringing upon other peoples' liberties?
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Old 01-09-2007, 07:11 AM   #39
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Firstly the harm is cumulative, standing a meter away from a smoker for five minutes isn't quantifiable harm, secondly we are dealing with private premises such as bars and clubs where the owners have final say over what people can and cannot do and lastly as I said a liberty is a freedom of action and is not neccessarily good or bad; you have no right to use force to stop other people from smoking, you do have a right to ask them to stop or to walk away; this line on minimising harm is at the expense of liberty - it's the same sort of puritanical arguments made by the temperance movement during the era of prohibition as well as those of the anti-drug movement.

Ban smoking in public spaces, ban it from all government buildings, ban it in all public schools but allow the owners of restaurants, clubs and pubs to make the call themselves; patrons are consenting by entering a smoke filled room - if there really is commerical benefit to making premises smoke free (apparently a trend with less people smoking) then it is in their interests to start putting bans in place and I 100% support that. If I maintained a smoke free venue and somebody tried to light up and refused to stop then they should be removed, thats good for everybody, but getting the government to come in to enforce an anti-smoking regime in venues that they don't own then that is wrong.

I think that it's a real pity that people still smoke, I think that anybody with the fortitude to quit deserves a pat on the back and will hopefully enjoy the benefits of a healthier lifestyle, but I still think that as individuals we are capable of living with freedom even when it means that some make people make the stupid choice.
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Old 01-09-2007, 07:32 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Ban smoking in public spaces, ban it from all government buildings, ban it in all public schools but allow the owners of restaurants, clubs and pubs to make the call themselves; - if there really is commerical benefit to making premises smoke free (apparently a trend with less people smoking) then it is in their interests to start putting bans in place.
I say it's the owners of these places who want to see the smoking ban more than anyone else, after all they are the people subjected to that smoke-filled atmosphere all the time. From what I've read they can't wait for the smoking ban to commence here.

Quote:
patrons are consenting by entering a smoke filled room
People are entitled to breathe clean air, the same way someone can smoke if they please. I wouldn't smoke around a non-smoker. It's about having some decency and respect for the comfort and health of those around you, especially as now everyone should be well aware of the risks for non-smokers too. I don't care if it's only for 5 or 10 minutes, or if everyone else lights up in that place because it's allowed, that's 10 minutes that I have to sit with my eyes stinging and bear that smell until I'm forced to move elsewhere because someone hasn't the courtesy to smoke outside.
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Old 01-09-2007, 07:39 AM   #41
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Why shouldn't these venues put up no smoking signs and enforce the policy? If it's the owners banning smoking on their premises I am very supportive.

Smoking etiquette seems to enter into it's own form of social contract - but I disagree that we are entitled to breath clean air wherever we go; especially at the pub.
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Old 01-09-2007, 07:52 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I disagree that we are entitled to breath clean air wherever we go
I think that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while.

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Old 01-09-2007, 08:00 AM   #43
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I say it's the owners of these places who want to see the smoking ban more than anyone else, after all they are the people subjected to that smoke-filled atmosphere all the time. From what I've read they can't wait for the smoking ban to commence here.

But then you really have to ask the owner why they wait for the state to take action.

If the owner really wants his bar, disco or whatever smokefree, he could do so.
It's a poor excuse if he says he is waiting for the state to do so.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:04 AM   #44
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Is it really? If my eyes water when I go near a neighbours heavily chlorinated pool is it my right to force them to lower the ammounts? If I am standing in a designated smoking area does my 'right' to breath clean air demand that the smokers around me butt out? If I walk into an opium den.... you get the picture - I don't think that we have rights or entitlements over the enviornment in limited settings of private property (so a smoke filled room - thats fine, dumping heavy metals that leech into my back yard not okay).
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:05 AM   #45
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But then you really have to ask the owner why they wait for the state to take action.

If the owner really wants his bar, disco or whatever smokefree, he could do so.
It's a poor excuse if he says he is waiting for the state to do so.
Probably due to a loss of business. Most coffee shops and food places here have been smoke free for a while.

In bars now smoking is banned at the bar or within a certain distance of it to protect the staff working there. So, if they haven't banned it like the cafes, they are trying to protect their staff at least.

Our ban comes into place in three months so we won't be waiting long before everywhere is smoke free.
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