Rest in peace Mr. Khaled Salah and Muhammad Salah - U2 Feedback

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Old 07-07-2004, 10:22 AM   #1
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Rest in peace Mr. Khaled Salah and Muhammad Salah

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/07/in...07mide.html?th

JERUSALEM, July 6 - The Israeli military shot dead six Palestinians, and an Israeli officer was also killed during two clashes on Tuesday, one in the West Bank, the other in the Gaza Strip.

...

The shootout also claimed the lives of two residents of the building: Khaled Salah, who was in his 50's and taught in the engineering department at An Najah National University in Nablus, and his 16-year-old son, Muhammad.

Dr. Salah's daughter, Diana, 23, told The Associated Press that the family took cover during the intense shooting. She said her father and brother were each hit by a single bullet after the shooting died down and the army called on residents to come out of the building.

Major Feingold said the military did not know the exact circumstances, but regretted the deaths.

Dr. Salah received a doctorate in engineering from the University of California, Davis, in 1985, and was an American green card holder, according to An Najah National University and the United States Consulate in East Jerusalem.
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Old 07-07-2004, 11:14 AM   #2
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Tragic to be sure but where does it mention who the 4 other Palestinians were?

There were 2 terrorists holed up inside the building (One of whom was Yamen Faraj the Area Commander for Abu Ali Mustapha Brigades and the other was his Lieutenant Amjad Arar) that building was encircled by Israeli Commados and was then fired at with rockets from a helicopter. The 2 terrorists inside the building were armed and there were innocent people kiled, they were essentially human shields for the terrorists as are most innocent people killed in the occupied territories and are as much victims of Palestinian Terrorism as those killed in any suicide bombing.

Then you had a seperate incident where 2 armed Palestinians were shot while trying to attack an IDF position in S-Gaza. These are not innocent people they fight and kill innocent civilians and they die because of this. I think that it is a very sad thing when innocent people die no matter where they are from or who they are but make no mistake, there is a difference between having someone die in a firefight and murdering them, by taking out the terrorists how many lives both Palestinian and Israeli have been saved?

Everybody killed here is a victim of terrorism, as long as terrorist groups operate within Palestinian residential areas then people will be killed and the responsibility rests solely on the PA for not doing more to remove terrorists from Palestinian controlled areas.

Rest in Peace Captain Moran Vardi, his sacrifice ensures that a peace with justice and stability is a little bit closer.
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Old 07-07-2004, 12:26 PM   #3
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this thread was intended to salute two of the many innocent victim of this useless and stupid murder in palestine.

Seems you didn't follow the posted link:

Quote:
Of the Palestinians killed, four were militants, but the military also acknowledged the deaths
...
The Israelis shot dead one of the wanted Palestinians, who was taking cover in a shed, but the second escaped to a nearby apartment building
...
An Israeli helicopter unleashed a missile at the gunman, but he continued to return fire until he was killed by ground troops.
...
The two dead gunmen belonged to the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, she said.
I just had to remember the lady who protested peacefully against demolitions of homes and which was bulldozed to death by the israeli army (you can search for an older thread of FYM.

I didn't salute to Captain Moran Vardi in this thread because i think it's the job of a soldier to give away his life for his country.
So also his dead is tragic, it's part of his job.
And it's definetly not part of the job of a Professor to give away his and his sons life.
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Old 07-07-2004, 01:09 PM   #4
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Rachel Corrie of the International Solidarity Movement was a total imbecile pro-terrorist pawn used by the Palestinians in a shameful way, she does not deserve to be honoured in any way shape or form, I personally think that she deserves a Darwin Award which kinda puts a hole in my logic track but still, I think that here death was a bad thing but I certainly think that she was responsible for her own death.

I just wanted to put a context there for the event, a firefight between terrorists and soldiers where a missile is used is a situation where civilian deaths are possible and regrettable. Also little thing, dont post NYT articles because they have the whole registration crap, just go via news.google.com and find a link for another source.
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Old 07-07-2004, 01:27 PM   #5
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A_Wanderer:
I added the link for the context since the mods don't like big quotes i decided just to quote the things i wanted to focus.

I prefer the NYTimes and the BBC because their authors write in a less biased way also they are not always successful with their approach.

Quote:
I personally think that she deserves a Darwin Award which kinda puts a hole in my logic track but still, I think that here death was a bad thing but I certainly think that she was responsible for her own death.
Do you think that the beheaded men in iraq also deserve the darwin award because they knew the danger when they went to iraq?
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Old 07-07-2004, 02:07 PM   #6
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This was a double post, Corrie not an innocent bystander, you have to be pretty dumb to stand by as a house is demolished and if a piece of rubble falls on you then I think its your own fault.
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Old 07-07-2004, 02:09 PM   #7
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Corrie was not what I would call an innocent victim here, she was standing in front of a bulldozer out of sight and a piece of rubble fell on her, she was not simply run over by the IDF on purpose it was an "accident" in that it was unintentional however Corries own action of placing herself in such a dangerous place (i.e. in the middle of a demolition) makes it more like suicide. This is nothing like poor Nick Berg who had his head sliced by Islamic Terrorists after he was kidnapped, they are two entirely seperate things, one is a case of being a member of the ISM an supposedly nonviolent organization that willingly supports violence perpetrated by Palestinian Terrorists and the other is a man who is Kidnapped against his will and then murdered, seperate things standing around while a house is demolished and having a knife move through your neck.

Just to clarify here is a picture of Rachel Corrie taken prior to her death, I am sure that she was a perfectly moderate peace loving individual who was murdered by those bad Israelis through no fault of her own (that was sarcasm).
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Old 07-07-2004, 09:43 PM   #8
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that picture is doctored and phoney


you may want to do a search

there was a thread in here awhile back

other members were also mislead by false information.
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Old 07-08-2004, 02:19 AM   #9
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May I please have some proof that that set of photos (yes there is more than one) are doctored, I went over the "Why two women went to War" forum and I couldn't find where it shows that they are fakes, I am serious, I cannot find evidence that the photos are faked, I searched indymedia sites, googled for it and looked over LGF (which is usually on the money) and they keep posting the pictures. All that I am saying is that it is not a clear cut case of Israel murdering an innocent peace protestor on purpose, there is a certain degree of accountability that you must accept when you choose to play chicken with a bulldozer and I simply don't believe the woman should be canonized for what I would call stupidity.

More to the point, why is it that we don't see forums dedicated to the Palestinians murdered by the terrorists. Jere you have a man who became an enemy of Al Aqsa quite possibly for not cooperating with them and what do they do, they drag him out into the street and execute him with their kalashnikov. The people that kill a man for no good reason in front of a community with press present are not some sort of freedom fighters, they are criminals and they do no good for honest Palestinians or Israelis. I do not like it when people say that they oppose terrorism just like anybody else but then say they also oppose Israeli terrorism citing routine actions by the IDF as somehow morally equivalent to murder. There are a lot of things wrong with Israel and the way that they operate in the region and I have no problem with people pointing those problems out but when people only point out the flaws with Israel and ignore their enemies or downplay the significance of terrorism threatening a liberal democratic state it becomes a one sided anti-semitic (as in anti-Jewish in case anybody was going to point out that Arabs are a Semitic people too) point of view and to say otherwise is totally dishonest. Point out the flaws but dont overlook the reality of what is going on, that is all that I ask.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...xem10207021903

All those innocent civilians are essentially the living tissue surrounding a tumour and if the terrorists are going to be removed it is an unfortunate fact that there will be civilian deaths, by going out and eliminating terrorists the Israelis are saving lives on both sides and helping the peace process by removing the Islamist influence over the Palestinians opening up political oppertunity for Arafat and the PA.
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Old 07-08-2004, 02:22 AM   #10
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

even Wikipedia has the photograph there of the event and the neutrality of the article is not disputed. There is an entire discussion of what picture to use and why it was selected when you click on it. I have not seen a single reason to assume that the image is a fake.

How is it that terrorism is fostered by the Palestinians and the western world continues to give them financial support for these actions. It does absolutely no good for anybody, Arab or Israeli to have terrorists attacking innocent people and then have other mostly innocent people be on the recieving end of the inevitable retaliatory millitary incursion.

Here is a site that deals with the figures of the current conflict so that people may understand the casualties of it, who dies, how many people die and who kills them. It can be quite enlightening.
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Old 07-08-2004, 08:32 AM   #11
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EDITED TO SAY: I'm not sure if the picture has been proven fake, come to think of it--I think I (and Deep) may be confusing this "fake picture or not?" thread with a different one.

Regardless of your position on Corrie's politics, I find it a little sad that people feel the need to smear a young girl who died unnecessarily.
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Old 07-08-2004, 10:47 AM   #12
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A_Wanderer:
I remember a picture of our Foreign minister which was floating around in the media last year.
He was beating a cop - obviousley everyone cried "how could he" - "what a radical". A few days later public could find out that emediately before that picture was taken the policeman who was beaten by him was beating his wife.
So a single picture dosn't allways give back the situation in context.
No matter if you show an agressive person or a killed one.

And i don't like the way how you speak about that lady. Of course she's not innocent. It's verry likely that she knew the risks of her actions. So did the mercenaries.

So back to my unanswered question:
"Do you think that the beheaded men in iraq also deserve the darwin award because they knew the danger when they went to iraq?"

Or is she stupid because she died for her ideals instead of money?

Klaus
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Old 07-08-2004, 11:07 AM   #13
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I think that there is a clear difference between being used by terrorist organizations to protect gun smuggling tunnels which is not some idealistic noble pursuit and then dying in an accident while engaging in dangerous actions near a bulldozer and being kidnapped and executed. I pity her and I think that it is tragic that she is used by the Palestinian terror groups as a usefull idiot but I cannot accept that this is in any way comparable to the death of a civilian contractor in Iraq, he knew the risks yes, he accepted the risks yes, he was murdered and life goes on. With Corrie she accepted the risks and performed a profoundly stupid thing by messing with a Catapiller and she died because of that, then after she dies Israel is roundly criticized by most major organizations full inquirys are launched and the ISM does its best to manipulate it to their advantage, putting a whole Corrie was run down while in clear sight of driver story into the press with matching out of sequence (and date) photographs of the protest.

I think that these Human Shields are very ignorant individuals who are full of idealism that is shamelessly exploited by those who know how to use people. did you ever think about why the Israelis demolish buildings? That some 90 tunnels have been found hidden beneath civilians houses that are used to run guns, missiles and explosives in from Egypt? How the ISM is given locations of where to protest, where to obfuscate the Israelis by people of a less than savoury nature. I am not saying that Corrie herself was a bad person, I am saying that she was strongly misguided and turned from someone who was helping innocent Palestinians to someone who aided terrorists. Her death was an accident that was caused by the lack of clear view by the driver and her recklessness in the incident. Since her death the Israelis have fitted cameras to the bulldozers to ensure that such a tragedy never happens again. It is not the same as a murder in Iraq, there is no moral equivalance here, she was not murdered for her ideals she died in an accident that she had a lot to do with.

Her death accident, Nick Berg (who was not a mercenary he was setting up telecommunications in Iraq) was murdered. There is a difference between the two, she died out of her own misguided idealism and gross incompetence when dealing with heavy machinery and he died because a bunch of thuggish Islamists kidnapped him and murdered him. Not the same thing, not in a million years. He didnt die for money, he died because he was murdered by some Islamist thugs, she didnt die for the Palestinians or sacrifice in the name of her ideals she died because she came of second best against a catapiller bulldozer.

PLUS: Those MURDERED in Iraq are not eligable for a Darwin award because their removal from the gene pool is precicely that, Murder.
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Old 07-08-2004, 11:15 AM   #14
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A_Wanderer:
Not every house in Palestine was bulldozed because of gun smuggling tunnels, you can read about it at various israeli human right groups for example.

But just call it fight against terror and anything goes these days
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Old 07-08-2004, 11:21 AM   #15
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Do you think that the results of bulldozing houses of bombers and their families and those that house suspected terrorists as well as tunnels has led to the significant drop in suicide attacks over the last year, that the decreace in violence since Israel began unilateral strategies of disengagement and anti-terrorism may actually be because all these methods that the left said would never, ever work against terrorism is actually having a real positive influence and that because of this less people die?

I think the policy is successful and that if the Israeli Government had listened to the weak willed international community we would be seeing more deaths on the streets of Gaza and Tel Aviv and the violence would only be getting worse. It isnt getting, the policy is working when there is a peace are you personally willing to say that your opinion of Israels actions and its side effects may have been unfounded?
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