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Old 07-08-2004, 12:05 PM   #16
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A_Wanderer:
I think that some of the professional terrorists moved to Iraq and so Israel isn't affected as it used to be.

But, how do you think Israel and Palestine can ever live together? Do you think that everyone who could be a terrorist will be killed and after that the people of both tribes will live together happily?

By the way there is no solution from "the left" vs. "the right". I remember one of our first "left" chancelors in Germany (and definetly the best one ever) Mr. Helmut Schmidt who didn't negotiate with terrorists (RAF) but decided to try the liberation of the hostages in the airplane. While the conservative party here allways tried to avoid conflicts and rather pay than send troops.

And.. now there is an interesting morale question.
Do you think that a government is allowed to kill innocent people to save others?
If you say yes - even if it was your beloved wife and your son who will be killed?
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Old 07-08-2004, 12:58 PM   #17
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You must be joking Mr. Klaus, Palestinian terrorists operating within Iraq? I havent seen any evidence for this may you point to it I think it would be rather startling.

We cannot just kill terrorism away, that is ignorant. What can be done is utter destruction of the infrastucture and leadership of the terrorist organizations which prevents them from acting, in addition to a very strong attempt at a political solution with the PA, if a peace is attempted while the terrorist groups still have the strength and potential to launch attacks it is easy for them to derail negotiations but if they are rendered impotent then there is a better chance of political success and once that is achieved all the issues of terrorism will just melt away.

Again I am not saying a government should kill civilians to save others, I am saying that to save civilians you have to conduct millitary operations and these things do lead to civilian deaths. The point here is that fighting terrorism is worth it. Most anti-terrorist operations conducted by the IDF kill or capture terrorists, civilians do get killed and that is a sad fact but remember they are used by the terrorists as protection, they are unwilling human shields who are placed in the firing line by those who use them. I will give you this link to a page of statistics that breaks down the casualties on both sides since the second intafada so that you may see the numbers of people killed, who killed them and how they compare, there are a few surprising figures there.
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/artic...?articleid=439


In regards to the personal element about killing innocent people to save others I will not beat around the bush, I would do it. As much as I am loathed to think about it if I was given the oppertunity to shoot down one of the planes on September 11 filled with innocent civilians I would do it and would kill hundreds of innocent people by my own hand, this is the tragic thing about terrorism there is no easy way out, there is no way out that wont result in deaths, no magic wand that makes it all better and we can just go along with our lives in bliss, if you can minimise the suffering by taking lives then it must be taken. These people would have been killed by the terrorists in any event, they are the victims of terrorism even if it is not the terrorist that kills them. There is never a happy ending for terrorists, if my family was on the line and was murdered by my government in a simmilar situation, or if they were walking down the street and were killed by a stray bullet during an arrest then I would be angry, I cannot say that I would justify it in advance, its not like I would have a choice in such a decision I can only console myself with the knowledge that through such death more lives have been saved, ahead by the numbers if you will. Now this sickens me to the pit of my soul, playing it by the numbers because I genuinely wish things were black and white, that we could defend ourselves without loosing a piece of our souls. I look around at the world and I see such virulent hatred, we have men out there who do not seek peace and freedom rather the antithesis, they want opression and violence, chaos, they have nothing to loose and they place us in the position of being between a rock and a hard place. It isn't just the gore that hardens my view of the world, I look at the suffering, to see the pain that terrorists inflict upon the families of innocent people, the sheer hatred that they stir within people who should desire peace, the entire effect of terrorism is this and I know it. As much as I would lie to myself that I could never kill another person its just not true, this is a very tough situation to think about, all that joy and potential wasted in an instant, Stalin said that one death is a tradgedy and a million deaths is a statistic, that entire concept makes me sick, I think of that and I see the death camps of the Nazis, the Gulags and the killing fields, the cultural revolution and all the most evil deeds committed by men, then I try to seperate it from fighting terrorism, make it different because when lives are at stake its a different situation and different rules suddenly apply - again really difficult bloody question - can't rationalise it, cant turn it off or turn it away, I have a strong conviction that we can fight terrorism without becoming monsters, part of doing that is facing up to what we are against and making sure that the resolve is strong, I think that the best way is this, I would never ever murder any innocent human being on purpose. I would be willing in an extreme circumstance where many lives are at risk and there is no other means of prevention take direct action against a threat even if it meant civilians could be killed. If I was on the recieving end of such a policy I would be very very angry and grief would surely change my point of view for better or worse but from where I am now I would think that such actions are justifiable if they spared others from experiencing the suffering that any victim would have.

If I may turn the question back at you, if you had the oppertunity to shoot down the planes on September 11 would you do it? Could your government kill your family to prevent a larger disaster and it still be the right thing to do?
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Old 07-08-2004, 04:47 PM   #18
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If I may turn the question back at you, if you had the oppertunity to shoot down the planes on September 11 would you do it? Could your government kill your family to prevent a larger disaster and it still be the right thing to do?
That's an excelent question especially if you wouldn't know what we know today (eg that the buildings will colapse).
In that situation you might think that they are "just" regular hijackers who land somewhere - shoot some of the hijacked people etc.
After the first machine crashing into such a building the decision is much easier (and was verry surprised that none of the Airplanes were shot down)

I'm pro shootdown but of curse it's a morale classical tragedy, no matter how you decide it takes a bad end.
I'm against negotiations from the government with hijackers or terrorists (except exchanging hijacked people against volunteers)because i think a government must refuse to be blackmailed or the number of terrorists and hijackers may grow dramaticaly.

So i'm probably less "left" than you think

Quote:
I have a strong conviction that we can fight terrorism without becoming monsters, part of doing that is facing up to what we are against and making sure that the resolve is strong, I think that the best way is this, I would never ever murder any innocent human being on purpose.
i 100% agree

The resolve has to be strong AND just.
When i see Israeli soldiers hiding behind palestinensian kids (no matter what these kids did before) it simply makes me sick and i'm glad that the Israeli high court forbid this "strategy" and the israeli army isn't allowed to do that anymore.

From my point of view measuring with 2 different scales (we and the enemy) or by accepting violations of human rights for a higher goal we give the terrorists a big field to recuit people because the "evil west" dosn't live up his standards.
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Old 07-09-2004, 05:38 AM   #19
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What does 'left' even mean? Oh that's right, it means evil.

Sorry, carry on.
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Old 07-09-2004, 11:07 AM   #20
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Since this thread is allready f***ed up i just add more controversal mid-east news here:

BBC Reported that the ICC ruled against the Israeli government.


Quote:
The International Court of Justice in The Hague is understood to have decided that Israel's West Bank barrier is illegal and should be removed.

The court has now started reading out its ruling. Leaked reports say it will call on the United Nations to consider what action is required.

Israel insists the barrier is needed to keep out West Bank militants. The Palestinians consider it a land grab

...
Much of the 640km (400-mile) barrier is being built on territory Israel occupied in 1967, rather than along the internationally recognised boundary between Israel and the West Bank.


The Palestinian-Israeli conflict has gone on for too long and been too bitter for any law to solve the issues
Jim, UK

Israeli barrier: Have your say
Palestinians say the network of walls, fences and ditches is taking away their land and dividing their communities, separating people from schools or workplaces.

They received a boost from the Israeli High Court last week, when it ordered the government to reroute a 40km (25-mile) section of the barrier near Jerusalem.

Israel says the barrier, which it started building in 2002, has already served its stated purpose by preventing suicide bomb attacks against Israelis.
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Old 07-09-2004, 11:48 AM   #21
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"Im acting astonished"

Was there ever any doubt that the World Court would rule against Israel? Israel is a Jew among nations (kinda Ironic really) and this entire "trial" is really just one more piece of credibility removed from the "international community", at least its non binding because in the real world you can't argue with results, attempted suicide bombings are down 90% which means that Israelis are saved and many Palestinian kids were stopped from blowing themselves up.

I am also going to say that any land grabbed by the Israelis with this fence does not bother me at all, the Palestinian Authority has obfuscated peace deals time and time again, the last major offer was rejected (All of Gaza, 90% of the West Bank as well as limited right of return) and Arafat unleashed the Al Aqsa intafada as the counteroffer, The Arabs will get another state free from foreign interference but for their inaction against terrorism small pieces of land taken by the fence are the price for the forseeable future until all Palestinian Terrorism ceases and the terrorist groups are dismantled.

I don't support expansion of settlements or to retain the post-'67 borders but in the intermediate term I think that the fence is doing a very important job, when there is a solid peace then sections should be dismantled and the minor territory disagreements resolved until that time however the fence is doing its job and s making sure that the security situation does not collapse, every day without a bombing is a day closer to peace.
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Old 07-09-2004, 11:58 AM   #22
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A_Wanderer:

Did you read the article?

They didn't say that Israel dosn't have the right to build the wall but they have to build it on their territory (Like the GDR Built their Wall on their territory)

edited to add:

Do you think the Israeli High Court is anti-jewish too?
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Old 07-09-2004, 12:12 PM   #23
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I never said anything about the world court being anti-Jewish, I was using Jew among nations to allude to Israel being a scapegoat in the region just like Jews have been used as scapegoats historically and I find that funny.

The Israeli high court is right and many sections of the fence are needlessly disruptive of Palestinians and these problems must be adressed.

I stand by by statement that the United Nations as an organisation is a corrupt hotbed of dictatorial regimes that is in the pockets of Arab regimes, don't believe me I point to all the resolutions against Israel, the recent World Conferance against Racism in Durban, the fact that half of the emergency sessions of the Security Council have been called when Israel launches an incursion into Palestinian camps, the resolution 3379 "Zionism is Racism", the fact that the Palestinians are given more representation than any other people without land or under direct occupation e.g. Kurds, Tibetans. The world court is an extension of the UN and I would say that its scale is probably tilted.

In regards of the political purpose of this entire excercise I will simply leave it to the Palestinian PM Ahmed Qureia to put it out there.
Quote:
"The international high court decided clearly today that this racist wall is illegal to the root and Israel should stop building it and take down what has already been built of this wall. We welcome this decision,"
The intent is clear and now we will see a new wave declaring that fence is illegal in principal and that Israel should tear it all down.

This is all a sideshow from the real game, what is happening with Arafat and how long until you get regime change and real reform within the PA. That is when you get progression towards peace and until that happens all we can do is wait and hope that there are no more innocent people killed on both side.
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Old 07-09-2004, 12:30 PM   #24
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Using anyone as a scapegoat dosn't seem funny to me.
And how can you use Israel as a scapegoat without being anti-israelic?

Basically the ICC said the same than the Israeli High Court said.

When you quote something it could be helpful for the reades to add who made this statement to get the context.
It wasn't an ICC official who called it a "racist wall" but the Palestinensian president.
And the place where this wall is built is no good idea many human rights organisations protested against it because farmers were cut of their fields, children couldn't access their schools anymore etc.

I wonder why Israel didn't build the wall on their ground. But maybe it's easier if you can outlaw any protestor as supporter of terrorism and therfore it's convenient to built it on their territory. But well seems they forgot their own high court and the ICC.
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Old 07-09-2004, 12:46 PM   #25
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The PA is very experienced when it comes to using international organisations to their advantage, this is another example of it. Now they have a verdict that criticises the route of the fence (only small sections are actually wall) they will milk it for all that it's worth and these stupid games will continue, the PA says Israel is a criminal state and their people recieve aid, their leaders recieve bribes and nothing is achieved. The Israeli government insists for now that the route of the fence is not going to be the route of a new border and when there is a decent peace deal and a Palestinian is created the fence can be dismantled and they can have most of the West Bank (which is what we would have had anyway because there is no way that the Palestinians are getting all of Gaza and all of the West Bank with full right of return, compromise is key).

I used the political quote because that is what this is, a political manuover by the Palestinians to distract world attention away from their defficiencies and the total alienation of Arafat, same basic deal applies with the Iranian nuclear question, they defer blame to Israel to excuse themselves long enough to gain weapons and the international community takes the bait. The "legality" of the West Bank barrier-fence is not the productive area of discussion for peace as it does not prevent there being a Palestinian state it simply ensures that there is better conditions for a peaceful resolution, that being no bombs going off killing innocent people.
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Old 07-09-2004, 01:09 PM   #26
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A_Wanderer:
It's not important if it's a wall or a regular border - fact is that they built the border on foreign territory and that they didn't care about the civilists who lived in that region (i don't think that the responsible persons were that stupid and didn't know that farmers need access to their land or olive trees take several generations to grow etc.)

I think both sides are excelent when it comes to PR. Every time you criticize the Israeli government many people try to play the "antisemitic card" (most of them to dumb to even know that Palestinensians are also semites)

Again if it was just for the protection i don't see any reason why the border isn't built like israel think it should be built but on THEIR OWN LAND.
Unneccessary and stupid acts like that from Mr. Sharon are verry bad for all Israelis. We can't expect that our enemy cares about international laws as long as we don't do so.
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Old 07-09-2004, 04:44 PM   #27
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I can't tell you how nervous this makes me about my friend in Tel Aviv, especially since I'm no longer able to e-mail her. I hope she is OK.
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Old 07-09-2004, 05:23 PM   #28
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I hope your friends fine
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Old 07-10-2004, 05:39 AM   #29
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Human rights groups are the enemy of "future" terrorism victims.
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Old 07-13-2004, 03:07 AM   #30
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HANDICAPPED MAN KILLED

A handicapped Palestinian in his 70s was crushed to death when Israeli troops demolished his home in the southern Gaza Strip, Palestinian security sources have claimed.

Israeli tanks and armoured bulldozers moved into the Gaza Strip to demolish what the army called militant gunposts.

The army said it had removed flimsy shacks and uncompleted structures, but no inhabited buildings in the raid near the town of Khan Younis.

However, Palestinian medics and witnesses said 70-year-old Mahmoud Khala Sallah was inside a building when it was knocked down.
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