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Old 06-25-2004, 07:14 AM   #1
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Overheard on Saudi National Television and other stations in the Middle East

Our good friends the Saudi's on sytate sponsored television have had this to say:

[Q]Saudi Professor: Allah Permits Annihilating Christians and Jews

Sheik Dr. Ahmad Abd Al-Latif, a professor at Um Al-Qura University, was asked the following question on Saudi channel TV1 on May 24: "Some imams and preachers call for Allah to annihilate the Jews and those who help them, and the Christians and those who support them... Is it permitted according to Islamic law?" Professor Al-Latif responded: "What made them curse the Jews is that the Jews are oppressors... The same goes for the Christians, because of their cruel aggression against Islamic countries ... while the truth is that this is a crusading war whose goal is to harm Muslims. This is why a Muslim is allowed to curse the oppressors from among the Jews and Christians... Cursing the oppressing Jews and the oppressing and plundering Christians and the prayer that Allah will annihilate them is permitted."
[/Q]

Sounds so peaceful. America and its cruel aggression against mulsim countries. Any ballpark idea how much money, cruel America sends into these muslim countries that we are allegedly, so cruel to. We could fund quite a school budget with it I assure you.


[Q]Sheik Muhammad Al-Munajid, a disciple of one of Saudi Arabia's most revered religious leaders, Sheik ĎAbd Al-ĎAziz ibn ĎAbdallah ibn Baaz, "The issue is not one person, two, ten or a hundred going out with their guns to support their brothers. Defeating the infidels requires a much greater effort. It requires the mobilization of the nation. How can the nation be mobilized? I believe that the stupid acts of these Jews and Crusaders mobilize the nation. The big explosion will come! In spite of everything, it will happen!"[/Q]

The Big explosion is coming. Wonderful. A Saudi predicting a big explosion coming. This infidel is tired of this kind of rhetoric. Unfortunately we also have evidence of Saudi Clerics talking out both sides of their mouths. This can be presented later though. BOOM!


[Q]Saudi Sheik Abdallah Al-Muslih, chairman of the Commission on Scientific Signs in the Koran and Sunnah of the Muslim World League, used evidence from early Islam to support his claim that suicide bombings on enemy land are permitted according to Islamic law: "... Regarding a person who blows himself up, I know this issue is under disagreement among modern clerics and jurisprudents... There is nothing wrong with [martyrdom] if they cause great damage to the enemy. We can say that if it causes great damage to the enemy, this operation is a good thing. This is when we talk of Dar Al-Harb. But, if we speak of what happens in Muslim countries, such as Saudi Arabia ... this is forbidden, brothers! This is the land of the Muslims. We must never do this in a Muslim country."[/Q]

So yes, please blow yourself up only if you cause great damage to the enemy. Do notblow yourself up at home though. That is bad.

[Q]On May 10, Dr. Yassin Al-Khatib, a professor of Islamic law at Um Al-Qura University, declared on the UAE's Al-Majd TV, which frequently has Saudi guests on it, that "the honor, blood, property and mostly the fact that they entered the country [i.e. Iraq] ... make it every Muslim's duty to go out against them, not only the Iraqis. This is every Muslim's duty. Jihad today has become an individual duty that applies to each and every Muslim. It is forbidden for a person to remain silent... When the Muslims fought in Afghanistan they destroyed the Soviet Union, which was a superpower. It collapsed and Allah willing, so will this [the U.S.] collapse." [/Q]

Professor of Islamic law! It is forbidden to remain silent. You must commit jihad against the US to bring about its collapse?" Professor of Islamic Law!!!!!!! Sound like he has some influence.

[Q]On a March 17 broadcast on Iqraa TV, Saudi preacher Sheik Said Al-Qahtani discussed this issue, as well as the cases in which Muslims are permitted to declare a defensive Jihad: "... We did not occupy the U.S., with 8 million Muslims, using bombings. Had we been patient, and let time take its course, instead of the 8 million, there could have been 80 million [Muslims] and 50 years later perhaps all the US would have become Muslim... What should a Muslim do if he is attacked in his country, on his land? In this case, there is no choice besides defense, self-sacrifice, and what religious scholars call - Defensive Jihad... We attacked their country, and this caused them to wake the dormant enmity in their hearts... Especially since there is global Zionism, the enemy of Islam, and Judaism, and fundamentalist Crusaders... They interpret this whole incident as only the beginning and thus there is no choice but a preemptive strike." [/Q]

OK...let me understand this. September 11 was a bad thing. We should not have attacked America on its own soil. Because of this America was able to stir up resistence to us. If we had remained silent we could have taken over America later. This sounds like real SORROW over September 11. This is REAL condemnation.


[Q] Nasser Bin Suleiman Al-Omar, appeared on Al-Majd, on June 13, stated: "America is collapsing from within. Where are America's principles of justice and democracy? ...Islam is advancing according to a steady plan, to the point that tens of thousands of Muslims have joined the American army and Islam is the second largest religion in America. Today, America is defeated. I have no doubt, not even for a minute, that America is on its way to destruction. But as Ibn Khaldoun said, just as it takes decades for nations to rise, it takes them decades to collapse. They don't collapse overnight. Because Communist Russia opposed reality it collapsed immediately. America may not collapse this way. It will be destroyed gradually. America will be destroyed. But we must be patient." [/Q]


More with the rising up and overthrowing of America by Muslims living here.

More and more I see and read the same themes. Make peace until we are strong enough to take them over. Learn from Mohammad who did this to his enemies. It may take years, but it will happen. America will collapse. It is your duty to resist.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now with all due respect to Verte, one of my most favorite members of FYM, she responded with a thread about Muslims speaking out against violence. Anitram, another of FYM's great posters, responded to my questions about Muslim leaders not speaking out loud enough. Both have defended Islam wonderfully, but I still do not buy into it. It is one thing to have someone make a statment to the press that never reaches the peoples ears that it needs to reach, and it is another to talk doublespeak to one crowd and peace to another.

[Q]One month prior to Canada's decision to bar Saudi Arabia's highest ranking government-appointed cleric, Sheikh Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayyis, from entering the country, (2) the Saudi preacher gave a sermon on Saudi TV 1 discussing Jihad. Al-Sudayyis, who serves as one of the imams of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, stated: "The history of the Jewish people is written in black ink, and has included a series of murders of the prophets, the Mujaheedin and righteous people... But maybe it is the beginning of their end... You have revived the hopes of this nation through your blessed Jihad... With Allah's help, one of two good things will be awarded you: either victory or martyrdom." On June 11, Al-Sudayyis was given the honor of leading Friday prayers for over 10,000 worshippers gathered in the East London Mosque to hear him call, in English, for interfaith peace and harmony in an event that included Prince Charles via satellite and British Minister for Racial Equality, Fiona MacTaggart.(3) [/Q]

On the one hand in his country he preaches Jihad from the Grand Mosqu on Saudi TV. Excellent, and on the other, he Leads interfaith peace prayers. This is why it is impossible for me to beLIEve that there is peace on their mind. Maybe there is, but it is not peace unless it is under Muslim law in their mind.

Oh and one final thing....in response to an earlier bombing this was heard on Saudi TV:

[Q]In reaction to the May 1, 2004 terrorist shooting in the offices of an oil contractor in Yunbu', Saudi Arabia, in which seven people, among them two Americans, were killed, Saudi Crown Prince Abdallah ibn Abd Al-'Aziz stated at a gathering of Saudi dignitaries, including top Muslim clerics and preachers, that "the Zionists" were to blame. The statement was made at a May 2 gathering of the royal family, which aired on Saudi TV 1:e assured that the Zionist are behind everything. This is certain. I don't say this with 100% [confidence], but with 95%."

In addition to other leading Saudi officials, such as Interior Minister Prince Nayef, the following day Dr. Salem Al-Aufi, the secretary general of King Fahd Center for Printing the Koran, reiterated on Saudi TV 1: sterday we heard the Crown Prince say that Zionism is behind these attacks. Who helps them carry out these kinds of attacks? Who gives them money? Who gives them weapons? Who presents them with the evil ideology that brought them to this? There is no doubt that behind this, there are international organizations aspiring to undermine this country's security, and terminate its achievements, and at the top of these organizations stands Zionism, the enemy of the religion." [/Q]

This is from the Saudi Royal family and the Saudi Governement. Sadly, to them this is all about religion. We sit here in the west, with our view of peace and freedom, being more tolorant, a society in which we can all worship where and when we want, and not disturb each other. A society in which we can function under a government that is separate, for the most part, from religion. This is NOT the peace that they preach.

I cannot find it in my heart to believe that there is sorrow over the death of ANY civilians when I read these things.
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Old 06-25-2004, 07:25 AM   #2
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Nuke 'em. If they don't want to live peacefully, send the Islamic sphere of influence back into the annals of history.

I don't advocate that, but, really...if the West wanted to destroy Islam, they could with the drop of a few bombs. The only reason they still exist today is because we are far more compassionate than they are. If they had this kind of nuclear arsenal, I'm sure they'd have used it by now.

Religion is a cancer on civilization, and, as you can see, it isn't about peace or love or whatever; it's about control. A bunch of cowards crowd around a "holy book" to justify their hatred. I'm sure Christianity would be exactly the same way, had the Protestant Reformation never occurred; the Catholic Church's record on torture made them just as bad as the Taliban...if not worse back in the Middle Ages.

End religion. It kills.

Melon
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Old 06-25-2004, 07:29 AM   #3
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I have said it before and I will say it again, millions of muslims are peaceful civilians who genuinely do not like these people running their religion through the mud but there are millions who genuinely believe the hatred and lies and are willing to kill us all in the name of their religion. We will have to show them that we care about Muslims all over the world by removing the control these corrupt and evil men wield over an entire relgion.

Statistically speaking I would be talking about the sum of all Jihadists and their sympathisers, if you look at the numbers in Chechnya, Iraq, Palestine, SE Asia, Afghanistan, N-Africa you will find that there are a lot of people out there who believe in and actively support Jihad even though they represent a very very small percentage of the 1.1 Billion Muslims out there they would number in the millions.

If we genuinely expect to win hearts and minds in the middle east we will have to give real voices of moderation a chance and not these duplicitous men who will take our money publicly and then buy weapons and then plot our demise in private.

Give every Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu a true and just peace, a peace that makes life worth living, a peace that brings freedom and hope to all and let us never accept the peace of the grave or subservance that our enemies desire.
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Old 06-25-2004, 07:56 AM   #4
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I have no statistical data to show millions. What I have here are quotes. I am not condemning an entire group of people over the preachings of some people. I am concerned that there will be millions if there are not already. I am concerned because if this is what they are portraying on National TV from our "Ally" then we have a problem. Why should we neglect the people in our own country while billions are sent to the MIddle East to countries that put this on National TV.

One thing for sure, if you control the media, you have a lot of power. There will be millions before all is over.
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Old 06-25-2004, 08:39 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Sounds so peaceful. America and its cruel aggression against mulsim countries.
Everyone seems to forget the cruel agression of 9-11 and countless other planned and thwarted attacks on our soil. There are people who would destroy us all if they could, and I'm sure they're still trying.


Quote:
Any ballpark idea how much money, cruel America sends into these muslim countries that we are allegedly, so cruel to. We could fund quite a school budget with it I assure you
Yeah, really. That's why I've never bought into the 'give them money like us and make them happy!' theory. We HAVE been giving them money. They don't want money, they want us dead. (disclaimer: not all of them but enough to make things dangerous)


Quote:
Originally posted by melon
if the West wanted to destroy Islam, they could with the drop of a few bombs. The only reason they still exist today is because we are far more compassionate than they are. If they had this kind of nuclear arsenal, I'm sure they'd have used it by now.
I can't believe somebody actually said that. I've been thinking for ages!



Yet, we are so 'evil'- the 'infidel' - 'Great Satan'
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Old 06-25-2004, 09:25 AM   #6
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The fact is that nuclear proliferation among second rate powers is the greatest threat to humanity today. Terrorism may be seen as the means of warfare by our enemies but they are on the verge of gaining weapons of tremendous destructive power. Iran is a key example of why we cannot let these weapons fall into the wrong hands, they are a state bent on the destruction of Israel, if they get these weapons they will be the ones to initiate nuclear war and Israel will be forced to respond in kind. The balance of power in the middle east for the past 30 years has been based on the fact the Israelis run an unacknowledged nuclear program that deters any major attacks againt the nation from coalitions of arab armies hence the rise of terrorism as a means of warfare. If nuclear weapons fall into the hands of Iran this balance will be shifted and hundreds of millions of lives will be at risk. Not to mention the risk of a nuclear Iran invading the gulf by leveling its capitals and siezing the oil fields.

Terrorism is a means of warfare, it kills a lot of people and no state can be held accountable, if nuclear weapons can be produced by terrorist sponsering states then the possibility of a nuclear terrorist strike increases exponentially for each additional state that gains such weapons. These states support groups would not hesistate to use these weapons and it is for this reason there can be no mistakes about the intention and end result of nuclear arms in Arab nations, the outright destruction of Israel and an inevitable strike against the US and its Allies is what will occur if such action goes unchecked.

the answer now is not mutual disarmament as the key means of peace because it is not the Soviet Union that is being dealt with, todays rogue states have nothing to loose and may well use terrorist strikes as a tool to deliver nuclear carnage into the west.

In this world we must prevent outright the sale and transfer of nuclear technology and must prevent acquisition of nuclear materials through all means even millitary strikes at weapons sites and reactors and work to get India and Pakistan to disarm their arsenels through an internationally supported peace effort.

There are a lot of good people in the arab world, it is just unfortunate they are rotting in the dungeons of criminal regimes. We must pressure all nations to liberalise in a clear and transparent way, we must encourage true democratic reforms and support reformist elements within such regimes, if we can wrest control from the current regimes and allow true moderates who care for their people to reform the systems of governance this threat may be averted.
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Old 06-25-2004, 11:11 AM   #7
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I think I've said this.......Saudi Arabia is *officially* Wahhabist. It's their state religion, and no other religions are allowed to be practiced in that country. Even Shia Muslims aren't allowed to practice their religion. Wahhabists claim that Shias aren't really Muslims. The house of Al-Saud promoted the Wahhabist teachings while getting together the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. In 1926 they set up a religious police force. In the Princess Trilogy book, the religious police grabbed two of Sultana's teenage friends for being around men they didn't know. This is a crime in Saudi Arabia. One of the girls was killed by her own family rather than the state because she was a virgin. It's like a Muslim KGB or something. The Saudi religious establishment is bad news. Most Muslims in other countries don't like Wahhabism. Anti-Wahhabist books have been published in Turkey. Say what you want to say about the evils of the Saudi Wahhabi state. I'll say that Muslims in other countries don't approve of what they do. But that doesn't erase the problems caused by the Wahhabists. They're a problem, and thus far the Saudis have been getting away with murder, because of their money and oil. You won't find me defending the Saudis, just Muslims in general in other, more moderate countries like Turkey, also the royals in Jordan with their impressive female talent.
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Old 06-25-2004, 11:27 AM   #8
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The Wahhabis were the devils who the Saudi Royals made a pact with.

The crown chose to give the wahhabis control of the entire society hence no other religion than Islam in exchange for control of the country itself. Ever since '73 and the oil crisis many Saudis have used their ill gotten gains to spread the Islamist message around the world. The most obvious results of this was the ideological and monetary backing for the Taliban in Afghanistan (operationally it was the Pakistani ISI that orchestrated their rise to power) and the Islamist organisation that has shown its capacity to strike the west in a most deadly fashion, al Qaida, an organization with the stated goal of establishing a renewed Caliphate across the entire Muslim world by deposing any non Wahabbi governments.

Very dangerous ideas from some very dangerous people - who for some reason have TV even though they didn't exist in mohammeds day, some 7th century recreationists these Wahabbis are . , I guess im still mad that they don't try to fight us with swords and arrows.

The wahabbists are an example of the wider Islamist movement, there is no moral equivalence between Islam and Islamism which is but a thread of a wider cloth.
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Old 06-25-2004, 11:40 AM   #9
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We may be fooling outselves if we think the problem is limited to a group we call Wahhabists. The anti-semetic teachings are not limited to Imans in Saudi.
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Old 06-25-2004, 11:54 AM   #10
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True, I've seen anti-Semitic ravings from Muslims outside of Saudi Arabia. There's another extremist tradition in Islam from the Deobandi school of Islam in India, which is the *direct* ancestral school of the Taliban. This stuff is influencing opinions in the U.S, which is really scary. It's a threat to moderate Muslims, not to mention the Jews, needless to say. Some idiots set off bombs in Istanbul and Ankara yesterday just ahead of the NATO meeting in Istanbul. Three people were killed. All three were Muslims. What a bunch of hypocrisy.
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Old 06-25-2004, 12:13 PM   #11
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And the muslims who are murdered in Iraq by "freedom fighters" and those killed in the Sudan because they happen to be African and Muslim and the Palestinians killed by Hamas and IJ for not cooperating and those killed in bombings in Saudia Arabia, the list goes on and on - but I guess that this is the collateral damage that too many in the west accept as justified because Islamist movements have legitimate greivances with the west and they cant help it if civilians get in their way, unlike the US of course who cant lauch a single missile without full approval by a JAG but still gets chewed out when the enemy placed children in an arms depot.
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Old 06-25-2004, 12:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
More with the rising up and overthrowing of America by Muslims living here.

More and more I see and read the same themes. Make peace until we are strong enough to take them over. Learn from Mohammad who did this to his enemies. It may take years, but it will happen. America will collapse. It is your duty to resist.
So, if this philosophy and agenda are going around, who's to say Bridgette Bardot wasn't onto something with her comments about Muslims trying to take over France in sheer numbers? Not such a crazy old lady now, is she?

I am also floored by their arrogance and brutality, when they know full well we have the power to destroy them in seconds (nukes) So does Israel! Yet they continue with their terror. They must be completely convinced we will never, ever push that button. So doesn't that contradict all the rhetoric about us being so 'evil'? They are only using that as propaganda to sway public opinion (which reading posts here appears to be working) or to get support from more Arab brethren. They know damn well if we really were as evil as they say, and we really were out to destroy Islam in a war as some have claimed, they'd all be dead already!
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Old 06-25-2004, 12:39 PM   #13
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It's a delicate balancing act. There are plenty of peaceful Muslims in the U.S. who are just getting on with their lives and are ordinary U.S. citizens. The only thing that they do differently is go to a different place to pray. There is a mosque leader in Massachusetts who had the support of the local rabbi when he landed a deal for the land for their mosque. There is a mosque leader in Portland, Oregon, from Bangladesh, who has made presentations on Islam at a local Jesuit school and other non-Muslim places. Then there the nuts who are saying these disturbing things about Jews and Israel. I'm not defending the nuts. Having read some reasonable French Muslims, I think Bardot really goes off over the top over Muslims in France. She doesn't like Muslims or immigrants, period. That's excessive.
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Old 06-25-2004, 12:44 PM   #14
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But once again, taking up for the ones who 'aren't like that' always covers up for and excuses and hides the ones who are.

I'm sure Bardot could have been more tactful and less excessive though.
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Old 06-25-2004, 01:00 PM   #15
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Re: Overheard on Saudi National Television and other stations in the Middle East

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
More with the rising up and overthrowing of America by Muslims living here.

More and more I see and read the same themes. Make peace until we are strong enough to take them over. Learn from Mohammad who did this to his enemies. It may take years, but it will happen. America will collapse. It is your duty to resist.
Dread, you noted the same theme from the Prime Minister of Malaysia here .
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