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Old 12-06-2004, 08:10 AM   #31
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Originally posted by blueyedpoet
ahh, choice...but do we really have it? I mean we all certainly feel like we have choice, but is it an illusion?
Consider: if what we do is a result of who we are, and we did not choose who we are, then we do not choose what we do.
Perhaps another slam at choice is to say, look we live in a determinist world. The laws of physics and history determine the course for the future. What you are going to write in response is what you are going to write. You can try to say, no I will not write what I'm supposed to write, I will mispell a word! But, you were always going to mispell the word, you only did what you were going to do. The same can be said of our moral choices and actions.
(again, just so no one hates me, this is not the position i take...i just don't want to post my position yet)
Whether or not we truly have choice in our actions, from our own perspective we do and we have the conscious ability to evaluate and make those choices.

Until we are able to identify the system that makes the choices for us (if one exists) we must be held responsible for our own choices.
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Old 12-07-2004, 12:28 AM   #32
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so if we think we have choice we have choice?
Some people prescribe to the notion of chaos and quantum physics, but there are a whole lot of other cosmologists who believe the world is ordered. Einstein for one, his followers, string-theorists etc...if the universe is ordered than that is precisly the system that represses choice.
Another view is the action-reaction...we could hold God responsible for our choices. Afterall, the is the unmoved first mover. that is to say if every action causes a reaction then every action is a result of a previous action. If God caused the first action, then all subsequent actions are a result of God's action.
Another way to phrase it - in christian lingo - is to say that had God never created man, sin would've never happened
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Old 12-07-2004, 12:55 AM   #33
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String theory itself is not a direct following of general relativity nor is it quantum mechanics. Both GR and QM work very well in particular scales but they cannot be reconciled together, chaos theory is an important area of research and the elements of randomness are critical when researching any complex system. I think that it would be wrong to assume that God exists and is the cause for all action, I would also think that it is wrong to revert to the the Newtonian view of a clockwork universe where if one knows the direction and magnitude of every vector then we could predict the outcome of the universe. It is a lot fuzzier than that. Anyway I digress, I think that ultimately we have choices and restrictions on ourselves but we are responsible for what we do.
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Old 12-07-2004, 06:12 AM   #34
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Originally posted by blueyedpoet
Another way to phrase it - in christian lingo - is to say that had God never created man, sin would've never happened
No. Lucifer, annother of God's creations, sinned (pride) and was kicked out of heaven.
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Old 12-07-2004, 06:13 AM   #35
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I have come to the conclusion that this is impossible because everyone has a different standard of what they consider to be moral or responsible. Reading just what people here put in several threads, it's almost funny how varied they are, something that's inherently wrong to one person is totally cool with another. People here have even put words in God's mouth, proclaiming what THEY think God thinks and what he does or does not approve of. The root of it all is, things are no longer a search for truth as to what is actually the right or wrong path, but people wanting to justify their own positions they must vindicate for their own absolution and freedom from any guilt or judgement. They make up their own set of standards based on their opinions as they go along, and fight you over it. So if it's gotten to that point, there is no more good and bad, make up your own rules, and kill the next guy who tells you you're wrong
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Old 12-08-2004, 03:16 PM   #36
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I'm always suprised at how confidant people say they are in their beliefs about such issues. I think this issue along with others are very difficult to comprehind and there really is no easy answer.
String theory might be able to combine the apparent chaos of quantum physics and general relativity
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Old 12-08-2004, 04:16 PM   #37
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Your theory is interesting, blueyed, but I can't say we exist like robots.
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