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Old 07-03-2002, 09:44 AM   #1
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No More Bombs for Afghanistan!

In case you haven't heard this already, some 40 people were killed by a US air attack on July 1, many of them civilians, many of them children, most of them attending a wedding.

Hasn't this already happened enough? When will our government realize that its time to stop shooting from the air?

I think they should have stopped long ago. While the Taliban were still gathering in large numbers, I could see the justification, and I was willing to endure some very regrettable civilian casualties if that meant that millions of other Afghans would have a decent chance at life and democracy. But there have been no such large gatherings for months now and air power is simply too unreliable to justify its continued use, especially in pin point operations. The intelligence has proven too unreliable, the pilots can't really see what they are hitting all the time and bombs once released cannot be controlled with a high enough degree of certainty.

the war is in a new phase now, where we can afford to take much greater care with our operatons. Innocent civilians deserve for us to conduct our operations now with the highest degree of accuracy and if that means sending in our troops on the ground and incurring a few American casualties then I, for one am willing to accept that. Our soldiers knew the risks when they voluntarily signed up for duty whereas the Afghans just want to get on with their lives.

I think the lives of Afghan civilians should be treated as equal to the lives of American civilians when the government is planning its operations. And I think if we don't start now, we could end up losing everything we have gained in that country.

The Afghans are rightly becoming very angry at these continued accidents.
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Old 07-03-2002, 10:15 AM   #2
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I heard that the US military mistook the fireworks fired for the wedding celebrations to be firearms. The US govt later expressed their "deepest regrets".

Oh yeah, I recommend watching the movie 'Kandahar' by Mohsen (sp?) Makhmalbaf.

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Old 07-03-2002, 10:59 AM   #3
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Approximately 6,000 Iraqi children die each month as a result of U.S. economic sanctions, too, but hey--who cares? We're still the greatest nation on earth because we're the good guys and we always win.
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Old 07-03-2002, 11:29 AM   #4
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joyfulgirl,

I appreciate the reminder and your concern. Not everyone cares like you do.

BUT it takes two to tango. No one is making Sadaam spend aid money for starving children on other things and this could all be over tomorrow if he had the decency to step down and call for free and open elections.

That doesn't excuse us from finding a better way to get rid of him. Its just to say that we are not solely to blame for those deaths.

Can I make a suggestion to everyone? The govt is usually hypersensitive to public opinion about our (openly declared) wars. If you agree with me that airpower should now only be used as a last resort in Afghanistan then please call your representatives in the Senate and House and especially call the White house switchboard and leave your opinion.

You may actually be able to help the Afghan people live a little safer.
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Old 07-03-2002, 11:43 AM   #5
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i agree with you that we need to stop airbombing, it's got no accuracy and too many civilians are dying.


but we need to realize that the us will--can--never be a perfect country. who can we help? well we have the potential to help almost everyone a little bit or some a lot. and how effective is it to help a country sit up if you can't help it to walk?
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Old 07-03-2002, 11:52 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by whiteflag
joyfulgirl,

I appreciate the reminder and your concern. Not everyone cares like you do.

BUT it takes two to tango. No one is making Sadaam spend aid money for starving children on other things and this could all be over tomorrow if he had the decency to step down and call for free and open elections.

That doesn't excuse us from finding a better way to get rid of him. Its just to say that we are not solely to blame for those deaths.

Two top UN officials, Denis Halliday and Hans von Sponeck, world-renowned for their integrity, stepped down from their positions, calling the U.S. and British embargoes a kind of genocide. They saw no evidence that Hussein is withholding supplies from the Iraqi people and blame entirely the sanctions on these deaths. I repeat, approx. 6,000 per month. These are UNICEF numbers. That completely blows my mind.

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack your thread. I agree with you about Afghanistan.
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Old 07-03-2002, 12:03 PM   #7
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Here's the number for the White House comment line. Its like an ongoing poll. The President will get the results.

1-202-456-1111

Just say what you feel about this issue. Your call is recorded.

ps. if you are so inclined, be sure to say that you could accept somewhat greater risk for our soldiers if that meant greater security from accidents for Afghanis.

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Old 07-03-2002, 01:55 PM   #8
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I have mixed feelings about this
I feel that as long as the US feels that these sort of operations are conducive to fighting terrorism they must continue them


But the accident was tragic.

From my understanding the wedding was bombed not because of fireworks....but the firing of guns into the air...and the wedding was in close proximity to an anti aircraft installment.


I do agree that the idea of just dropping bombs for the hell of it......is a very poor system. They need to be MUCh more careful.


and I do wonder at this stage in the war if it is very prudent.
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Old 07-03-2002, 04:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl
Two top UN officials, Denis Halliday and Hans von Sponeck, world-renowned for their integrity, stepped down from their positions, calling the U.S. and British embargoes a kind of genocide. They saw no evidence that Hussein is withholding supplies from the Iraqi people and blame entirely the sanctions on these deaths. I repeat, approx. 6,000 per month. These are UNICEF numbers. That completely blows my mind.
Even accepting what Halliday and von Sponeck says as true, it doesn't change the fact that Hussein is building / has built weapons of mass destruction, and he is a madman crazy enough to use them on his own people and other nations.
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Old 07-03-2002, 05:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba


Even accepting what Halliday and von Sponeck says as true, it doesn't change the fact that Hussein is building / has built weapons of mass destruction, and he is a madman crazy enough to use them on his own people and other nations.
If you believe that Iraq has nuclear weapons or biological weapons, developed in the period since 1991, surely this only serves as further evidence of the ineffectiveness of sanctions against Iraq. Sanctions have done nothing to remove Saddam Hussein from power but that have killed at least 500,000 (at the most conservative estimate) innocent people.

Whiteflag - I absolutely agree with your comment that the lives of the citizens of Afghanistan should be treated as equal to American lives.

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Old 07-03-2002, 05:15 PM   #11
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Thanks whizzie!

BUT.....could we please debate Iraq somewhere else????????





BTW, I want to see their equality stated in the official policy of engagement and followed like the Law on the ground. As it stands now, it seems that the policy is more like that US soldiers are worth more and civilians less. That STINKS so bad I could puke!

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Old 07-03-2002, 05:31 PM   #12
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Sorry for getting off subject there, whiteflag. I've started another thread so this one can get back on to the original topic.

Sanctions against Iraq
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Old 07-03-2002, 05:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by whiteflag
Thanks whizzie!

BUT.....could we please debate Iraq somewhere else????????

It is an unimaginable tragedy that civilians were killed, to include women and children, and that 100 more were wounded.

And it is very avoidable.

However, with respect for the parties and families of the parties involved, I have a few comments.

There are two possible sources for the bomb that hit the wedding; either a C-130 gun-ship returned fire or anti-aircraft artillery fell back onto the ground and hit them.

THe B-52 that launched 7 satellite-guided bombs at Al Queda and Taliban bunker complexes nearby has been ruled out. Even though one of the bombs malfunctioned, it has been accounted for in an uninhabited area.

The C-130, if it was the cause, obviously fired at something. Either anti-aircraft artillery or fireworks/gunshots from the celebration. Now why, respectfully, would you fire at a big noisy C-130?? You are aware that a war is going on, and you know what these planes are here for? Why shoot at it?

Quote:

BTW, I want to see their equality stated in the official policy of engagement and followed like the Law on the ground. As it stands now, it seems that the policy is more like that US soldiers are worth more and civilians less. That STINKS so bad I could puke!

You should puke. If you seriously value Afghan civilians over our own volunteer military who went over there to wipe out terrorism so you have the freedoms to sit at your little computer and whine, I hope you puke a lot!

Why then, since you desire to know so much about our USA policy, don't you join up and see for yourself? I believe the whole of the people in Afghanistan at least appreciate us since they have more freedom since the war began.

ANd to those of you wondering why we are still bombing, it is safer to use satellite-guided bombs and drop from the air then to risk the lives of our sons and daughters and cousins to go and fight these worthless pieces of shit on the ground.
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Old 07-03-2002, 05:48 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl
Approximately 6,000 Iraqi children die each month
Oh really? DO you know this for sure (go ahead and insert liberal media source that only tells the unbiased truth}

Quote:
as a result of
the dictating party in Iraq, that is Saddam Hussein
Maybe you have heard this thing we want to enforce called a "regime change"? Remember, when we do go to war with them (Iraq), don't start waving your flag and protesting me, just think about those "6000" children

Quote:
U.S. economic sanctions, too, but hey--who cares?
Who?? It's is the U.N. (United Nations) who imposed the sanctions against Iraq, who agreed to them to stop the war.

Quote:
We're still the greatest nation on earth because we're the good guys and we always win.
Funny how people always complain about America yet I don't see people flocking to get out of here. In fact, I see the opposite.

As I say to people that hate our policies, our leaders, our society, and yet still live here, the door is always open.
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Old 07-03-2002, 06:00 PM   #15
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The last time I checked equal meant equal. It does not mean that Afghan lives were worth more than American ones.

I used the word "equal" in reference to afghani lives.

And you said the key word "volunteer". Whatever SOME of the people might have been doing at that wedding,( and I admit the possiblity that the wedding could have been used as a cover for something) nonetheless many of the people who died did not volunteer to be a part of this conflict. They can't choose to come or go and those who have chosen to fight mix in with them.

If the job of our military is to protect my fat spoiled arse at the cost of helpless people, then I'd rather they come home and protect our borders and airports than to go and be too careless with the lives of others who have no choices and nothing at all materially other than their lives and their families lives.

I think that our highly-trained volunteer soldiers could stick their necks out once in awhile and check the facts in person on the ground BEFORE they start shooting.

I am already deeply grateful for what they do but that does not mean that I HAVE to think that they couldn't be doing a better job.
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