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Old 12-01-2001, 09:02 PM   #1
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Israel bombings

Did anybody see what has been happening in Israel lately? I'm pretty unfamiliar with what has gone on over there and what is going on as far as how the countries relate to each other. Could someone explain to me some of the fundamental details please? Thank you.

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Old 12-01-2001, 11:18 PM   #2
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Basically...

Both the Palestinians and the Jews think that the land belong to them.

Palestinians are pissed because there is a Jewish state on "their land."

They have been fighting over it ever since Israel was created after WWII.

I'm sure there are others who would like to add more.

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Old 12-01-2001, 11:33 PM   #3
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i'm no expert, someone will need to clarify. here's what i understand:

following WWII, many european jews felt displaced in their native countries. they wanted a place to belong. naturally, many started immigrating back to the homeland of judaism, jerusalem. at the time jerusalem was a city (maybe the capital?) of palestine, a muslim country. slowly, the jews began moving into palestine and re-claiming their heritage. naturally, this pissed off the muslims living there who felt it was both an invasion of their homeland and an anti-islamic movement. the muslims and the jews began fighting. in an effort to settle the situation (because the world was obviously very sick of war) the world powers created Israel as a new country, with jerusalem as it's capital. Israel was now what had once been Palestine, and it was a jewish country. many former palestinians left Israel for other muslim nations. many settled in refugee camps along the gaza strip.

basically, the muslims and the jews both want the area that is presently called Isreal.

it's hard to choose a side (especially if you're a christian.) i feel bad for the palestinians because their country was overrun and they no longer "belong" anywhere. jerusalem is the capital of the world's three major religions and the muslims have a right to it as much as anybody.

i also feel bad for the Israelies. they jewish people seemed to have suffered more then any other ethnic group in history. i think they, too, deserve a place to "belong." also, they live daily with a fear of muslim jihad fighters who do horrible things like they did today in that mall, killing 10 people.

i often feel i'm siding with the israelies. as a christian american my heritage is closer associated to judiasim then islam. but, i have nothing personally against muslims and am against islamic discrimination.

the whole situation is one tough cookie.

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Old 12-02-2001, 10:56 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by madonna's child:

i often feel i'm siding with the israelies. as a christian american my heritage is closer associated to judiasim then islam. but, i have nothing personally against muslims and am against islamic discrimination.
Actually, if you want to compare religions, Christians are not more closely associated with Jews. Christians have much more common with Muslims, because Muslims give recognition to Jesus (albeit as the 2nd last prophet), whereas Jews do not assign him any elevated status. It is this issue, which turned into the ugly suggestion of "deicide", which has played an intrinsic role in Christian directed anti-Semitism throughout the ages.
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Old 12-02-2001, 11:12 AM   #5
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anitram, i don't mean the basis of the religions themselves, i mean the history of the people. most american christians and most american jews trace their heritage to europe. for instance, i am a german catholic american but there are many german jewish americans. you'd be hard pressed to find a german muslim american, unless their family immigrated to germany before america. because most jews and christians come from europe, our history is more closely related. the majority of muslims trace their heritage to the middle east. middle eastern history is very different from european history, with the exception of the crusades and trade routes. am i even making sense? ... my basic point is christians and jews feel more closely connected not because of their basis of religion but because their histories intertwine more closely then with muslims.

i agree with you that christianity and islam are more closely related as religions because of jesus christ.


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Old 12-02-2001, 04:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by madonna's child:
am i even making sense? ... my basic point is christians and jews feel more closely connected not because of their basis of religion but because their histories intertwine more closely then with muslims.
Yeah, you're making sense. Personally, I've never felt closer to Jews than Muslims, but I guess some people may.

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Old 12-04-2001, 09:59 AM   #7
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anitram, i'm not saying i do feel closer to jews the muslims. it's easier to favor the jews, which is why i don't do it. i can't choose a side. i don't think anyone should take the easy way out when it comes to respect.

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Old 12-04-2001, 10:51 AM   #8
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Israel currently occupies land siezed during the 1967 Arab-Israeli war. This land is not theirs and according to international law, they should have withdrawn. In fact, the UN has ordered them to do so roughly 35 times in the past 40 years. (see UN Resoluton 242)

But they haven't.

Not only have they held onto this land, they have also settled it extensively. Something explicitly prohibited by international treaty. Settlement of expropriated land is a war crime.

Of course, that brings up the question, what happened to the people living there?

Israel took care of them with a program of ethnic cleansing. Forcing them out of their homes, herding them into camps and caging them like animals for 40+ years.

Naturally, the Palestineans are a bit pissed off that someone came in and stole their land, the UN told the Israelis they had to leave, but the US unilaterially backed Israel in ignoring the resolutions.

So, having been occupied, ethnicly clensed and utterly ignored by the "symbol of freedom" that is the U.S, many chose the unpleasent route of terrorism.

But, while the Palestineans are usually blamed for everything, especially when any Israeli dies, most people fail to recognize the fact that Israel has killed 10 times as many Palestineans. And more unarmed civillians than Al-Queda.

Take a look at what they did in Dayr Yassin

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"...without discriminating among men and women, children and old people. They finished their work by loading some of the 'prisoners' who had fallen into their hands onto cars and parading them in streets of Jerusalem in a 'victory convoy,' amidst the cheers of the Jewish masses. After that, these 'prisoners' were returned to the village and killed. The victims included men, women, and children, a total of 245 people."
Or, perhaps, al Dawayima village

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“The first wave of conquerors killed about 80 to 100 Arabs, women and children. They killed the children by breaking their heads with sticks. There was not a house without dead. One woman, with a new-born baby in her arms was employed to clean the courtyard.... (they) shot her and the baby.... This was not in the heat of battle.... but a system of expulsion and destruction”. (soldier’s testimony cited by Morris 1987, p 222).
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Old 12-04-2001, 10:52 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram:
Actually, if you want to compare religions, Christians are not more closely associated with Jews. Christians have much more common with Muslims, because Muslims give recognition to Jesus (albeit as the 2nd last prophet), whereas Jews do not assign him any elevated status. It is this issue, which turned into the ugly suggestion of "deicide", which has played an intrinsic role in Christian directed anti-Semitism throughout the ages.
Actually, on basis of both religion and history, Christians are much more entertwined with teh Jews. Christians believe in the Old Testament, as do teh Jews. In fact, Christians view the Old Testament as very vital in that it tells our religious and historical roots. It is also filled with prophecies about the coming Messiah, which was fulfilled in Christ Jesus. Not only that, but the New Testament says that Christians are an extension of the Jewish faith, that gentiles have been "grafted into the vine", which means that any person who accepts Christ as Savior can join the Jews in being "God's people". Judaism and Christianity are so woven together it's unblievable. Islam has some similar history with the Jews and Christians, also, but it all starts to differ when we get to the story of Abram, Sarai, Hagar, Isaac, and Ishmael. Christian and Jews believe that the holy birthright (through which the true religion -salvation- would eventually arise) went to Isaac, and Muslims believe it went to Ishmael. This was a very important distinction. Yes, the Muslims do give Jesus recognition whereas the Jews don't. However, since Christians believe that Christ is the son of God and is the only way to salvation, and Islam doesn't, it doesn't matter. The beliefs are not the same at all.
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Old 12-04-2001, 10:54 AM   #10
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DoctorGonzo, that is why, to me, Ariel Sharon is a war criminal, and should be sitting next to Milosevic in the Hague.
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Old 12-04-2001, 11:08 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
Israel currently occupies land siezed during the 1967 Arab-Israeli war. This land is not theirs and according to international law, they should have withdrawn. In fact, the UN has ordered them to do so roughly 35 times in the past 40 years. (see UN Resoluton 242)
How exactly did that war start again? Wasn't Israel attacked and when they retaliated, they gained land in the process? How would that make it unfair for them to keep it? I'm afraid I don't quite get it. Not trying to take sides...I just don't have all the facts, that's why I ask.
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Old 12-04-2001, 11:22 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram:
DoctorGonzo, that is why, to me, Ariel Sharon is a war criminal, and should be sitting next to Milosevic in the Hague.
I think Sharon is maybe the third most dangerous person in the Middle East (after Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein). In his speech two days ago he accused Arafat of not wanting peace. On the other hand, Sharon has repeatedly said that and acted like he's against peace with the Palestinians. For one thing, he's totally against the Palestinians having their own state. Sharon continues the process of creating and expanding settlements, even though the Mitchell agreement speaks out against it.

So, Anitram, I'm partly with you here. Hopefully Shimon Peres will get to power soon.



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Old 12-04-2001, 12:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
How exactly did that war start again? Wasn't Israel attacked and when they retaliated, they gained land in the process? How would that make it unfair for them to keep it? I'm afraid I don't quite get it. Not trying to take sides...I just don't have all the facts, that's why I ask.
I'm glad you ask! There is too little of that in our world.

If we all asked more questions, this world of ours would be a much better place.

Anyway, the 1967 war started with a preemptive strike on Egypt by Israel, in the process land was seized.

A nation's army can occupy land that does not belong to it during the course of a war. It is an established and well-accepted fact.

However, when the conflict is over (and in this case, The 6 Day War did not last very long, obviously) all parties in the conflict must renounce their territorial gains and withdraw to within their origional borders.

Annexing land by force is a war crime.

In fact, it was a charge brought against the German hirearchy during the Nuremberg trials and is explicity foribben under international law.
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Old 12-05-2001, 12:36 AM   #14
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In fact, the conflict itself goes back much further than 1967.

But the Arab-Israeli War of 1967 is a good reference point because the borders prior to that conflict would be a good starting point for establishing an independent Palestinian state; the problem will be that some of these lands border Egypt while others border Jordan and Syria on the opposite side of Egypt.

I truly think that Yasser Arafat is only interested in carving out a portion of current-day Isreal for this porposed Palestinian state. However, some of the more extreme groups who are allegedly fighting for the Palestinians, namely Hamas and Hezbollah, are interested in making ALL Israeli lands into an Arab state of Palestine.

Needless to say, I do not think that an independent state of Palestine, carved from the pre-1967 borders, will happen with Ariel Sharon at the helm. He is too much of an Israeli hardliner who arrogantly encourages Jewish settlers to move into Palestinian areas (I can't even figure out why they would want to). Maybe Perez will/would be better, but I don't know. The Mitchell Plan needs to be put into place soon so that we can see where things will go.

That being said, Arafat needs to be bold and capture and turn over anyone involved in this past weekend's bombings. I realize this could be a security risk for Arafat as he will have to turn his alleged "allies" over to Israel, but it sure beats having airstrikes hitting 50 yards from his office, I would think.

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Old 12-05-2001, 02:33 AM   #15
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Perhaps we just need to pull out and let Israel fight for themselves...

If they make it - fine. If not, that is just the way it goes...

I for one am sick of Americans dying to keep that pile of dust in the desert "this name" or "that name"...if only the damn Romans would have left the Jews alone and started that damn "despora" thing...
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