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Old 02-24-2007, 05:08 PM   #16
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Everything we (the U S) do in Iraq

We do for Iran


there is no way Iran will not come out of this as the biggest winner

Quote:
BAGHDAD, Iraq — Thousands of Shiites on Saturday protested the U.S. detention of the son of Iraq's most powerful Shiite politician, and the country's Kurdish president deplored the "uncivilized" behavior of the American soldiers responsible.

The real message of the demonstrations: Don't push the Shiites too far either over concessions to the Sunnis or ties to Iran.

In cities throughout the Shiite south, protesters carried Iraqi flags and chanted slogans against the detention of Amar al-Hakim, 35, who was taken into custody by U.S. troops Friday as he returned from Iran.

He was released about 12 hours later — with a public apology from U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad.

Al-Hakim is the elder son of Abdul-Aziz al-Hakim, head of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Republic in Iraq, or SCIRI, a Shiite party with close ties to both Iran and the United States.
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Old 02-25-2007, 11:40 AM   #17
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Originally posted by MadelynIris

Taking the fight to their geographic region, is one of the only few good things that has come of Iraq. Its' a short drive to the fight, and we have the benefit of them fighting trained soldiers, with modern weoponry.



this has been the biggest lie perpetrated by the Bush administration, and i'm sorry that some of us still buy it.

the GWOT will not be won by armies that are easy to see, easy to follow on CNN, and give good media when you land on an aircraft carrier. the Iraq debacle is a great example of how conventional, state-on-state warfare have nothing to with the GWOT where you don't have nation states, but certain players within each state who are united not by geography or nationalism but by ideology.

the Bushies knew this, but they also knew that secretive strikes and intelligence work and cooperating with foreign governments isn't sexy, and it doesn't win elections when you could start a great big war against a great big bad guy.

so many decisions about the GWOT made in 2002-6 were made with the concern of what would look best on CNN/Fox and the 2004 election rather than what's the best strategy for fighting islamist fascism.

and putting Americans in the Middle East was exactly what Bin Laden has been complaining about since 1991. "taking the fight to the enemy" is precisely what Bin Laden and the Iranians want, because now they get to kill Americans on their soil (far, far easier to do than organize another 9-11) and if/when Americans redeploy from Iraq -- which seems the only logical thing to do, given the absurdity of asking American soldiers to police a civil war -- they will claim victory, that hte Americans pulled out like the British before them.

however, pulling out might be the smartest long-term strategy, despite the initial claims of victory by Al-Qaeda. yes, there will be violence in Iraq, not that there isn't now, but what it might well do is change the narrative. instead of Islam vs. America, it becomes Sunni vs. Shiite, or Islam vs. Islam, and it will focus the governments of the Middle East to focus on their own problems without the easy scapegoats of the Americans.
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Old 02-25-2007, 12:14 PM   #18
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the GWOT will not be won by armies that are easy to see, easy to follow on CNN, and give good media when you land on an aircraft carrier. the Iraq debacle is a great example of how conventional, state-on-state warfare have nothing to with the GWOT where you don't have nation states, but certain players within each state who are united not by geography or nationalism but by ideology.
There is no war to win here, but I am saying that essentially this is a temporary solution. It's costly to keep the zapper plugged in, but it will never get rid of all the bugs. It's a temporary diversion.

I'm not buying into anything, I know the score.

We go and Al Queda goes. There is no reason for them to continue to fight in Iraq anymore, unless it's to support their Sunni brothers.

But this will also Al Queda to turn their sites onto US soil again.
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Old 02-25-2007, 01:28 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris


There is no war to win here, but I am saying that essentially this is a temporary solution. It's costly to keep the zapper plugged in, but it will never get rid of all the bugs. It's a temporary diversion.

I'm not buying into anything, I know the score.

We go and Al Queda goes. There is no reason for them to continue to fight in Iraq anymore, unless it's to support their Sunni brothers.

But this will also Al Queda to turn their sites onto US soil again.
It's an expensive temporary "solution", lot's of lives lost.

Why don't we spend our time and efforts into protecting and trying to solve issues of an attack on US soil?
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Old 02-25-2007, 01:39 PM   #20
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Why don't we spend our time and efforts into protecting and trying to solve issues of an attack on US soil?
I think, that if we are to change strategies, this needs to be explicitly stated by the democrats. I think that this will resonate with the american people -- back to a defensive posture again, instead of offensive. Exercising your offense occasionally though, provides a healthy reminder to those that assume we 'would never attack'.

At the end of the day, that is the fundamental difference in Bush's policy from his predeccesors. He was offensive (no pun intended).
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Old 02-25-2007, 01:50 PM   #21
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


It's an expensive temporary "solution", lot's of lives lost.

Why don't we spend our time and efforts into protecting and trying to solve issues of an attack on US soil?
I agree 100% but unfortunately, I think this will never be addressed by decision makers for the same reasons the U.S government refuses to leave Iraq. It's all about saving face and of course, maintaining the rights to Iraqi oil. To address policy issues which have drawn the attention of extremists is to admit a flaw or fault in policy. Politicians like to think they are infallible. Look at how many people still refuse to admit Vietnam was a failure even 30 years later.
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Old 02-25-2007, 01:54 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris

We go and Al Queda goes. There is no reason for them to continue to fight in Iraq anymore, unless it's to support their Sunni brothers.

But this will also Al Queda to turn their sites onto US soil again.
Is it moral to induce a war in Iraq and attract al Qaeda there because it's better for cheap Iraqi civilian lives to be taken than your own American ones on US soil?

This is why the cycle will never end.
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Old 02-25-2007, 02:03 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris


I think, that if we are to change strategies, this needs to be explicitly stated by the democrats. I think that this will resonate with the american people -- back to a defensive posture again, instead of offensive. Exercising your offense occasionally though, provides a healthy reminder to those that assume we 'would never attack'.

At the end of the day, that is the fundamental difference in Bush's policy from his predeccesors. He was offensive (no pun intended).
Attacking a sovereign state is one thing. Neat and tidy with a set out agenda. Attacking a small group of people with no central location or structure is another. All the attacking has done is feed the propaganda and arguments for the extremists who don't want U.S interference in the Middle East. And like Anitram mentioned, this whole mantra of "it's best to fight them over there instead of here" really can't make civilians "over there" feel very good about being used as a proxy battleground. Civilians who probably end up joining or sympathizing with extremist groups after suffering loss due to the fighting thus creating more enemies, not less.

One problem with U.S interventions is that the decision makers fail to understand the culture and people of the region. Huge assumptions are made without any attention to points brought up by people with differing opinions about the social and political history of the region. Sadly, the U.S political environment seems focused solely on who's right/who's wrong vs what is the correct solution and what is the best way to implement it using all of the knowledge from every possible source like countries which have dealt with terrorism in other regions like true home-grown terrorism in Ireland.
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Old 02-25-2007, 02:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
Is it moral to induce a war in Iraq and attract al Qaeda there because it's better for cheap Iraqi civilian lives to be taken than your own American ones on US soil?
Anitram,

I'd say that situation is more of a by-product, and was not soley induced for that purpose, but it was one of them.

Same could be said for Afghanistan, right? Plenty of innocent civilians getting wrapped up in a war because of their Taliban leadership.

If you go back to 9/11, and empathize with the administration and (all the democrats in congress too), I'm sure the rhetoric was something like, "we've got to do something".

And everyone agreed, and supported both wars.

And neither party had a vision for what to do afterwards.
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Old 02-25-2007, 02:08 PM   #25
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Sadly, the U.S political environment seems focused solely on who's right/who's wrong vs what is the correct solution and what is the best way to implement
.

Completey agree.

Which bums me out about the leading democratic candidate, Hilary. I can't think of anyone more 'political' than her.

One reason I'd vote for McCain.
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Old 02-25-2007, 02:53 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris


Exercising your offense occasionally though, provides a healthy reminder to those that assume we 'would never attack'.
So flexing your muscle purely for show?

I knew guys in high school like that. They're all fat, lazy, and talking about the glory days now...
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:06 PM   #27
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So flexing your muscle purely for show?
Sometimes right? Ever stand up to a bully just one time to remind them of the consequences?
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:40 PM   #28
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Originally posted by MadelynIris



And everyone agreed, and supported both wars.

And neither party had a vision for what to do afterwards.
I don't think everyone agreed.

The Congress is one thing - most of them are political windbags and don't stand for anything at all (Rs and Ds both). But if you look at your country, it was divided on Iraq. If you look at the rest of the world, pretty much nobody supported the Iraq war. Even countries that sent soldiers, like the UK and Spain - polls indicated that something like 70-90% of their population was against it.

So a prudent man, or at least one with some minimal amount of foresight, could have seen that Iraq would be a mess. Some of us did see it. Bush was either reckless as to considering the implications or he was willfully blind, which is even worse.
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Old 02-25-2007, 06:06 PM   #29
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Originally posted by MadelynIris


Sometimes right? Ever stand up to a bully just one time to remind them of the consequences?
Standing up isn't attacking offensively. Sorry.
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Old 02-25-2007, 07:36 PM   #30
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Standing up isn't attacking offensively. Sorry.
I guess. I was thinking more along the lines of someone extorting you, threatening you, etc... where they weren't actually attacking you -- and you've had enough and you just beat the crap out of them.

Not a pacifistic approach, but one that I would still endorse under certain circumstances with my children.
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