GOP Nominee 2012 - Who Will It Be?, Pt. 4 - Page 55 - U2 Feedback

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Old 06-23-2012, 11:12 PM   #811
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But the way some conservatives here present their opinion, intentionally or not, comes off very wrong to us. Your comment, for instance, in our recent immigration discussion, insinuating my viewpoint on the topic was simply because of liberal middle-class guilt and fear that I'd "offend a brown person somewhere". That's simplistic, blatantly untrue, and the whole "brown person" remark, um...wow. Couldn't have found a better way to phrase that? Really?
TBH, Europeans tend to have a different outlook on this. Quite frankly, most Europeans (can I say "native Europeans" or is that racist?) wish to keep their countries primarily, well, European. Look at the French vote recently, for example - and I am not defending or advocating for the Front Nationale, but we have to be realstic as to what the popular support for them means. I accept America is different because of its history and that. But, at a time of high unemployment in the West in general, surely it is sensible to return to the old precept that charity, after all, begins at home? Actually, I would be prepared to make the argument that permissive immigration systems encourage racism, rather than the opposite.

Its interesting that Japan, still to this day, in spite of all their troubles, one of the most highly developed and advanced economies on the planet, has a very, very restrictive immigration system - and they never make any apologies for it either, and neither should they in my view. In fact, to be bluntly honest, they find the American and European idea of letting in large numbers of foreigners to do the jobs their natives can already do, absurd and laughable.

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The whole thing a while back about people on welfare scamming off the system. Nobody denied that that happens, but some here also pointed out instances where that was not true and why such programs exist to begin with. But it seemed to go in one ear and out the other.
I only vaguely recall that debate, but as for unemployment assistance and the like, I certainly don't have a problem with the state providing this - indeed, I have availed of it myself. But what I and most conservatives resent is the way the system grants welfare to those who treat welfare as basically a lifestyle choice. That was, I assume, the only point I was trying to make.

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And then the anti-gay sentiment among some right-wingers here throughout the years, well, that's never going to get support, because there's nothing about it worth supporting to begin with.
In my seven years here, I can only recall a single poster who put up blatant homophobic comments, and that person was banned. Indeed, I was one of the people that reported that person's posts. I personally am in favour of gay marriage on libertarian grounds, but I do not accept, indeed, cannot accept that people who are against gay marriage are prima facie homophobes, simply on the basis of the fact that they disagree with gay marriage. Actually, the American left's tactics on the issue, I find, quite franky, abominable at times, the way they are so eager to slur people who come to the issue with different conclusions to them with the 'homophobe' epithet.

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But I would point to his continued ties to Wall Street and corporate interests as the reason why that is, and that doesn't strike me as socialist, that strikes me as very much capitalist. He hasn't gone after the super rich and corporations as much as he should, and that's a big part of why we're having the economic problems we're having. Corporations have way, WAY more power now than they should be having, and the super rich are whining because, oh, my god, they might have to pay a bit more in taxes and they can't get their 10th home or yacht or something, the horror!
Agreed here 100%.
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Old 06-24-2012, 02:07 AM   #812
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The most accomplished Americans have been immigrants (like, say, Einstein). Immigration isnt in our blood, it is our blood. Yes, give us your huddled masses, but also give us your best and brightest and most ambitious. While an enormous amount of American talent is homegrown, we all benefit when people arrive with a purpose and ambition.
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Old 06-24-2012, 03:11 AM   #813
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In my seven years here, I can only recall a single poster who put up blatant homophobic comments, and that person was banned. Indeed, I was one of the people that reported that person's posts. I personally am in favour of gay marriage on libertarian grounds, but I do not accept, indeed, cannot accept that people who are against gay marriage are prima facie homophobes, simply on the basis of the fact that they disagree with gay marriage. Actually, the American left's tactics on the issue, I find, quite franky, abominable at times, the way they are so eager to slur people who come to the issue with different conclusions to them with the 'homophobe' epithet.
I think the problem is that I, like many on the "American left," have yet to encounter a legitimate argument against gay rights. Any argument I have encountered has been awful and easily refutable, and those I have challenged have consistently resorted to simply shying away from debate in order to maintain their close-minded viewpoints. I am not sure what you expect someone in my situation to do at this point.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:43 AM   #814
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Its interesting that Japan, still to this day, in spite of all their troubles, one of the most highly developed and advanced economies on the planet, has a very, very restrictive immigration system - and they never make any apologies for it either, and neither should they in my view. In fact, to be bluntly honest, they find the American and European idea of letting in large numbers of foreigners to do the jobs their natives can already do, absurd and laughable.
I find it really surprising that you have brought up Japan.

Japan's economy has been in shambles for 20 years and their high standard of living can directly be attributed to the population's willingness and discipline to work hard and work longer. Currently they are a demographic nightmare and you can easily see their senior citizens having to work full time well into old age (think 80s, 90s) to sustain the country. But, this generation is going to start to die out and then Japan is completely up a $hit creek without a paddle. One of the worst outlooks in the world, and a large part of that is their complete unwillingness to welcome immigration.

You may look at that as smart, but they're going to be toast in 50 years. Worth it? I guess that's up to individuals to decide.
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Old 06-24-2012, 01:19 PM   #815
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The most accomplished Americans have been immigrants (like, say, Einstein). Immigration isnt in our blood, it is our blood. Yes, give us your huddled masses, but also give us your best and brightest and most ambitious. While an enormous amount of American talent is homegrown, we all benefit when people arrive with a purpose and ambition.
We all benefit, as well, when they arrive in an orderly and lawful process. A process that expects immigrants to respect our laws, language and culture rather expecting us to accommodate them.

Open borders, lax enforcement of laws, amnesty for illegality, non-assimilation, and blatant political pandering all undermine that process.
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Old 06-24-2012, 01:24 PM   #816
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I find it really surprising that you have brought up Japan.

Japan's economy has been in shambles for 20 years and their high standard of living can directly be attributed to the population's willingness and discipline to work hard and work longer. Currently they are a demographic nightmare and you can easily see their senior citizens having to work full time well into old age (think 80s, 90s) to sustain the country. But, this generation is going to start to die out and then Japan is completely up a $hit creek without a paddle. One of the worst outlooks in the world, and a large part of that is their complete unwillingness to welcome immigration.

You may look at that as smart, but they're going to be toast in 50 years. Worth it? I guess that's up to individuals to decide.
China. No immigration and Thomas Friedman can't write enough glowing columns and books about their system.
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Old 06-24-2012, 03:24 PM   #817
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We all benefit, as well, when they arrive in an orderly and lawful process. A process that expects immigrants to respect our laws, language and culture rather expecting us to accommodate them.

Open borders, lax enforcement of laws, amnesty for illegality, non-assimilation, and blatant political pandering all undermine that process.

yes, because that's how all immigrants arrived in the US since 1776. having laws and enforcing them is a good thing. punishing *children* for actions taken by their parents is unconscionable.

the coded language "respect our language" is much easier to understand when you come out and say "no Mexicans."

don't worry, the Mexican economy is improving dramatically. immigration has slowed dramatically. they'll take their talents and delicious food somewhere else.
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Old 06-24-2012, 03:27 PM   #818
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China. No immigration and Thomas Friedman can't write enough glowing columns and books about their system.


he admires how they're investing in their future by building bridges, roads, tunnels, high speed rail, and spectacular airports.

as opposed to the ostrich right wing American "those bridges worked just fine in 1979 so lower my taxes because i'm not paying for anything but give me my social security and medicare while cutting food stamps because i'm white and earned it" mentality.
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:12 PM   #819
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China. No immigration and Thomas Friedman can't write enough glowing columns and books about their system.
China has an enormous population that the government is working on assimilating into the country's industrial economy, very much unlike Japan. When China runs out of population to do that with, they'll have very similar problems. And this is a very serious long-term issue for them, actually.
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:49 PM   #820
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China has an enormous population that the government is working on assimilating into the country's industrial economy, very much unlike Japan. When China runs out of population to do that with, they'll have very similar problems. And this is a very serious long-term issue for them, actually.
And the disproportionate number of young, single males due to their one-child policies.
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Old 06-24-2012, 05:04 PM   #821
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yes, because that's how all immigrants arrived in the US since 1776. having laws and enforcing them is a good thing. punishing *children* for actions taken by their parents is unconscionable.
Don't we punish children when mommy and daddy have to go to jail for making meth in the garage? Parents make bad decisions al the time. I favor some individual discretion in immigration policy. I don't favor the president issuing blanket exemptions beyond the scope of his authority for no obvious gain other than his political fortune.

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the coded language "respect our language" is much easier to understand when you come out and say "no Mexicans."
You do realize to become a naturalized citizen one must, with a few exceptions, take a English test as well as a civics test right?
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Old 06-24-2012, 05:12 PM   #822
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We all benefit, as well, when they arrive in an orderly and lawful process. A process that expects immigrants to respect our laws, language and culture rather expecting us to accommodate them.
The fact that you assume that immigrants today don't do the above indicates you don't know too many immigrants personally, do you?
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Old 06-24-2012, 06:14 PM   #823
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Don't we punish children when mommy and daddy have to go to jail for making meth in the garage? Parents make bad decisions al the time.
do we send children to jail along with their mommy and daddy?

seriously.




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You do realize to become a naturalized citizen one must, with a few exceptions, take a English test as well as a civics test right?

yes. and? i know several people with old italian grandmothers who don't speak English either, yet no one wants to deport them.
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Old 06-24-2012, 07:23 PM   #824
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I find it really surprising that you have brought up Japan.

Japan's economy has been in shambles for 20 years and their high standard of living can directly be attributed to the population's willingness and discipline to work hard and work longer. Currently they are a demographic nightmare and you can easily see their senior citizens having to work full time well into old age (think 80s, 90s) to sustain the country. But, this generation is going to start to die out and then Japan is completely up a $hit creek without a paddle. One of the worst outlooks in the world, and a large part of that is their complete unwillingness to welcome immigration.

You may look at that as smart, but they're going to be toast in 50 years. Worth it? I guess that's up to individuals to decide.
Japan's economy has been in shambles for 20 years? Well, compared to the 1980s, yes, growth rates have been moribund, but it is still one of the most technologically advanced and well-organised societies on the planet. Lots of Westerners would happily take that 'shambles' over the urban wasteland and ghettoes some of their own cities have been reduced to. Lets not get into how they avoided the crime rates seen in immigrant ghettoes in the West, because that would be racist!

I don't really trust predictions about what's going to happen in 50 years. No-one has that much foresight.
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Old 06-24-2012, 07:29 PM   #825
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Japan's economy has been in shambles for 20 years? Well, compared to the 1980s, yes, growth rates have been moribund, but it is still one of the most technologically advanced and well-organised societies on the planet.
Yes, because they have an extremely communal society in the sense that they are indoctrinated at a very early age about the need to work together because Japan is a country poor in natural resources and so they must rely on their labour. They've achieved, as a nation, incredible things precisely because of that outlook and the fact that the baby boomers there were willing to work harder, longer and later into old age. But they are now facing a complete breakdown of demographics and without immigration it is in fact extremely easy to predict their numbers in 50 years. And what they have going on now is simply unsustainable.

You may take the view that it's preferable to give up a standard of living and the mediocre economy going in exchange for keeping your nation more culturally monolithic, but that's arguable.

As a side note, I have known (and to this day know) many young people my age who have worked and lived in Japan - some white, some brown, some east Asian but not Japanese (mostly Chinese) and they all uniformly had the same experience - Japan is a great place to be, but the levels of racism they experienced there were also shocking to them in comparison to their lives in Canada or the US.
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