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Old 03-02-2005, 02:39 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
a message board

is not a college campus


no one is saying these guys can't have their club elsewhere
So what kinds of membership discrimination are allowed, and what kinds aren't?

Presumably gender discrimination is allowed, since most campus-recognized fraternities and sororities are single-sex...
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Old 03-02-2005, 02:43 PM   #17
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university's nondiscrimination policy

The policy specifies that groups cannot deny membership to students based on personal characteristics such as age, race, color, national origin, religion, disability, veteran status, sexual orientation and gend
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Old 03-02-2005, 02:46 PM   #18
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I don't get it, are they doing this to make a point or to cover their ass or what? I mean fraternities and sororities are some of the most exclusive groups in college. People get cut for not wearing the right clothes or not pretty enough or whatever, how would anyone prove it was because they were Jewish? If I was them I'd be happy to let anyone join. It would give the President, VP and the secratary someone to preside over.
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Old 03-02-2005, 02:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
university's nondiscrimination policy

The policy specifies that groups cannot deny membership to students based on personal characteristics such as age, race, color, national origin, religion, disability, veteran status, sexual orientation and gend
We know. The whole point is that the university's policy violates a groups freedom of association.

An my example to Mrs. Springsteen was not about a message board, but any group that meets together.
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Old 03-02-2005, 02:57 PM   #20
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i guess the association argument seems to come down to this: are you free to choose who you want to be with, or are you free to exclude who you do not want to be with.

joining a chess club, or a swim team, or a Christian group -- these are all pro-active things where someone claims membership through shared interest.

saying, "i want to hang out with chess players" is different from "i don't want to hang out with Asians."
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Old 03-02-2005, 03:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
saying, "i want to hang out with chess players" is different from "i don't want to hang out with Asians."
compare apples to apples

Is saying "I want to hang out with chess players" different from saying "I don't want to hang out with non-chess players"?


Is there a rational basis in the exclusion? Not an easy bright line question to answer.
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Old 03-02-2005, 03:09 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


compare apples to apples

Is saying "I want to hang out with chess players" different from saying "I don't want to hang out with non-chess players"?


Is there a rational basis in the exclusion? Not an easy bright line question to answer.
Ok but then how do they know? I wasn't handed a membership card.

Wait, does that mean I'm really not a Christian, what if I've been lied to this whole time?
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Old 03-02-2005, 03:12 PM   #23
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Originally posted by financeguy
Ehmm, what I think is there any chance we could have a thread that isn't about gays?
Oi, finance guy... that's pretty rude. If you don't like the subject, go elsewhere... it was obvious from the title of this post what it was about.
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Old 03-02-2005, 03:17 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


compare apples to apples

Is saying "I want to hang out with chess players" different from saying "I don't want to hang out with non-chess players"?


Is there a rational basis in the exclusion? Not an easy bright line question to answer.

yes, i do think they are different. one statement is by nature inclusive the other is exclusive. the end result may be the same, but the terms of membership are either framed positively or negatively. also, if one wants to join a chess club, but one does not play chess, one can go out and learn to play chess. if one wants to join a Christian club, one can go out and convert and become Christian. however, in this particular case, the members of the club are asserting that one cannot be simlutaneously gay and Christian.

also, i was on a swim team, and every swim team party was populated not just with swimmers but by people we affectionately referred to as "social members."

we had much more fun that way.
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Old 03-02-2005, 03:27 PM   #25
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Originally posted by Irvine511
also, i was on a swim team, and every swim team party was populated not just with swimmers but by people we affectionately referred to as "social members."

we had much more fun that way.
Perfect example of the perils of defining association in a negative way.

Just because someone has the right doesn't mean it is a good idea.
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Old 03-02-2005, 03:30 PM   #26
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Ok but then how do they know? I wasn't handed a membership card.

Wait, does that mean I'm really not a Christian, what if I've been lied to this whole time?
You don't really want to start a "Who's really a Christian?" thread now......
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Old 03-02-2005, 03:40 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


You don't really want to start a "Who's really a Christian?" thread now......

isn't that what this group is doing?
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Old 03-02-2005, 03:40 PM   #28
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if the members are trashing the fraternity, youd have some justification for excluding them, but just cause theyre non-christian, gay, african american or whatever doesnt entitle you the right to exclude them.

and who the hell would join that fraternity anyway?
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Old 03-02-2005, 03:53 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



yes, i do think they are different. one statement is by nature inclusive the other is exclusive. the end result may be the same, but the terms of membership are either framed positively or negatively. also, if one wants to join a chess club, but one does not play chess, one can go out and learn to play chess. if one wants to join a Christian club, one can go out and convert and become Christian. however, in this particular case, the members of the club are asserting that one cannot be simlutaneously gay and Christian.

Well, they could call themselves an association for "male" "straight" "Christians", which is pretty much what they are, and frame their terms of membership in a "positive" manner. Ultimately, the definitions of the terms of membership are up to the members themselves.

The whole point is that there's no real consensus on what forms of discrimination are acceptable. Here in Boston, MIT recognizes 30-some fraternities and a handful of sororities, and they are widely viewed as making positive contributions to campus life. Just down the river, Harvard doesn't recognize fraternities or sororities at all -- the ones that do exist are completely off-campus.
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Old 03-02-2005, 04:06 PM   #30
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This issue has been addressed before -- by several chapters of Intervarsity over the years who have stated that gay/lesbian students could not serve on leadership. I forget which Boston college initially threw IV off campus, but the ACLU came in on the side of the Christians on that one (in 2000), and did again a few years later when a similar case was brought in another part of the country. I forget the specifics of the latter situation, but the ACLU again seemed to think that private organizations had the right to define membership and governing ordinances.
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