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Old 06-23-2002, 06:45 PM   #1
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bringing africa into the capitalist orbit

the development plan for africa that is put forth by the likes of DATA and other like-minded organizations is percieved by many to be a good one. it is well grounded in values and is designed to be discriminating and then generous. it includes provisions for education and a plan for the AIDS epidemic which has swept the continent.

the plan is being ‘shopped’ around the world to various leaders and this coming week it has been promised as the headliner at the G-8 summit in kananaskis, alberta. it is up to the leaders of course if it gets the attention it has been touted to receive with so many other pressing issues at hand and then the level of support they do offer.

should the plan be accepted and executed in years to come it shall be intriguing to see how the continent is initiated into the global spectrum. in a way, large components of the continent are being brought back from the dead. in spite of whatever initial support the governments of the world grant, only foreign direct investment will sustain any early success into the long term future. this fdi will surely come from the corporations of the world as they will surely be attracted to a burgeoning, virgin market.

my question is this: is there a way to resuscitate the nation over the long term without overly exposing it to the hyper-capitalism that dominates the rest of the civilized world? is there a way by which a ‘better’ culture can be constructed?

the question, of course, assumes that you have a problem with present day capitalism(as i’m sure someone will point out). but many agree that the economic system of the day has stepped just beyond its boundaries into abusive territory.

(i do realize that there are not soon going to be circuit city's and wal-mart's every 10 minutes in a year but that would certainly be the long term attraction for many investors)

any thoughts? i realize i'm probably getting ahead of the plan here and anything closer to western culture is better than the present and the future as it stands now. but i think this is important long term.
sorry for the length
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Old 06-24-2002, 04:11 AM   #2
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Hi koba,
yes there is a way; there is always a way.
I am very skeptical about foreign direct investment as it is known as a way which ensures dependency and the well-known pressure effects of globalisation.
Also, those proposals have been made with the offers for debt reduction et al. I do think it is indeed another shame for our western civilisation and society to say "Ay, you MAY develop - but only the way WE want it" which means, again, that control and major profits stay in the center.
It would be better to pay our (European and American) debts, with interests of around 200 years or so; this means high reparations (not directly to the countries or their possible influencable governments or dictatorships, but to bodies and organisations with democratic legitimacy or also to private persons), debt cancelling, aid (especially medicaments against AIDS etc.), an official "sorry" for the crimes our culture has committed in the past and present time, and a few other issues.
The beautiful richness of African cultures has to be protected.
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Old 06-24-2002, 08:37 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
an official "sorry" for the crimes our culture has committed in the past and present time, and a few other issues.
hahaha... I'm assuming you're referring to the Black AFrican Tribe Leaders who sold their own black 'brothers' to the Dutch as slaves in the First place..


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Old 06-24-2002, 05:35 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite


hahaha... I'm assuming you're referring to the Black AFrican Tribe Leaders who sold their own black 'brothers' to the Dutch as slaves in the First place..


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Please, tell me you're not attempting to blame Black people for slavery now?
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Old 06-24-2002, 05:41 PM   #5
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Ah yes.. Dearest Fizzing.. I am not wholly blaming anyone.. Just pointing out an oft forgotten share of the blame.. Because apparently people have not moved on, as they should.

Reference... My Walter Williams Certificate of Amnesty in the Douchetastic Poetry Thread.

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Old 06-24-2002, 05:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite
Ah yes.. Dearest Fizzing.. I am not wholly blaming anyone.. Just pointing out an oft forgotten share of the blame.. Because apparently people have not moved on, as they should.

Reference... My Walter Williams Certificate of Amnesty in the Douchetastic Poetry Thread.

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True, people haven't moved on...racism is still a huge problem. However, it's a problem which affects predominantly Black people and is perpetrated predominantly by white people. I believe it's wrong to attempt to blame the people who are on the receiving end of racism for the existence of racist beliefs. It was white people who took Black people as slaves, and white people who made huge profits at the expense of Black people through the slave trade. It's incorrect to blame Black people for this, either wholly or in part.
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Old 06-25-2002, 11:07 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
It was white people who took Black people as slaves, and white people who made huge profits at the expense of Black people through the slave trade. It's incorrect to blame Black people for this, either wholly or in part.
The Unplugged One is right: tribal Africans did participate in capturing rival tribesmen and selling them into slavery. In terms of historical accuracy, it is NOT incorrect to blame some black people for the slave trade.

That sort of assumption requires that Africa is monolithic, one giant culture in which everybody gets along - that there's no animosity between peoples comparable to the occasional friction between England and France and between Germany and France.

The same assumption is often applied to the natives of the American continents. The assumption is that they were monolithically "in touch" with nature, good to the environment, etc., etc.

Such assumptions, I believe, are insulting to Africans and American natives: it's like saying to a European, "Irish, Italian, Swedish, you guys are all alike."
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Old 06-25-2002, 12:06 PM   #8
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Well said, Bubba, and actually you have a point in saying that no continent can ever be described as a monolithic block.

What disturbs me very much, Lemonite, is that I have heard your argument about 50 times, and it appears WHENEVER there is anything we should do to repair our fault.

It is pure stupidity that makes me compare pain and pain now, because it shouldnīt be compared, but maybe people like you understand it better this way. See, say that some Jews were maybe not that friendly with other Jews in Germany 1933 to 1945, who knows who was saying what to probably save his own life, or to gain influence, or whatever. Would you say that reparations and saying sorry by the people who actually have commited the crimes, in this case the Nazis, not the Jews, is negotiable? No, never.

I do not want to say that everyone was or is an angel in Africa. Africans are men, like us. But I would say, for example, that there are so many different tribes and cultures there that it is very, very difficult to define, and this with dysfunctional first world standards and practices, which African country is to be held "guilty". And whatever they were doing, it was nothing compared to the crime of being carted away over a whole ocean, into America, the realm of possibilities, which gave the slaves an average life duration of 18 years.

By the way, the official "sorry" may be expanded to all the things that were stolen off the African earth, diamonds for example.
And, Lemonite, without the work of those slaves I doubt that the United States would exist in all their wealthiness. Ok, neither my country would be that rich. But stop being so easy minded about an issue like that and babbling around, trying to seem intelligent, when you got no clue about this theme and the pain that surrounds it.
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Old 06-25-2002, 02:44 PM   #9
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my greatest fear is that the west is going to save africa from debt....just to make it a sweatshop for the west.



I hope they solve the problem inside out, by stimulating industry within africa, and not by whoring it out to foreign companies
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Old 06-25-2002, 02:56 PM   #10
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Arun has the right idea.

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Old 06-25-2002, 03:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

By the way, the official "sorry" may be expanded to all the things that were stolen off the African earth, diamonds for example.
And, Lemonite, without the work of those slaves I doubt that the United States would exist in all their wealthiness. Ok, neither my country would be that rich. But stop being so easy minded about an issue like that and babbling around, trying to seem intelligent, when you got no clue about this theme and the pain that surrounds it.

Fizzing and I took this discussion to PM's after realizing we were taking it off topic.. however.. Arun.. I think the goal is not to make Africa our 'sweatshop'.. but to be their own economically successful continent competing with everyone else in society and flourishing along the way.

Ok.. To whenhiphopdrovethebigcars.. I like it how you 'Well Said Bubba' then dive into me when he was just expounding on my point.. Hahha.. Credibility for your attacks on me?.. Or do you just not want to be Bubba'd?.. Hahaha.. Anyways

Many many people clamor for reparations.. for 'apologies'.. But my view on this.. when I see groups of blacks asking for money.. groups asking for Affirmative Action.. It is doing nothing to make steps forward.. there is no progress being made.. all these things do is stagnate us at the present state of relations for another generation.. I feel our country is ready to move on. Yes.. bad things happened, but am I to blame for that (If I were a great great great grandson of a Slave owner)?.. Should I pay for it?.. Of course not.. that's ridiculous.

Nice attempt to try and insult my intelligence.. with your 'babbling' around.. when in fact it is all this.. 'Let's try and feel good about ourselves by patronizing Blacks.. Letting them into positions they are not qualified for, just so we feel good.. putting them in to MIT where they are not qualified to attend.. setting them up for failure'.. that is Babbling.. It's racist, It's insulting, and it takes us nowhere. People can be a victim forever, but why would a descendent of a slave want to come at me with a pickaxe for something say my great great great grandfather did (I'm assuming they have a little more substance than to have this worldly grudge and have this hatred for 'the white man').. I didn't know him (My great gr. gr. grandfather).. It wasn't my fault he did what he did.. I just want progress and we can make it if we stop patronizing, and stagnating relations as they are at the current moment. I'm not saying ignore it, but instead of lowering ourselves to teh levels minorities say they are at.. let's try and elevate them by giving them jobs instead of unemployment benefits.. let's have them go to schools they are qualified for.. take the top ten percent of blacks.. that go to MIT.. but can't compete wiht the top 1 percent of whites that go there.. take those blacks and put them in schools wehre they can finish, where thye can excel, and then compete. That's all I want, and so should you.

Ok.. to address a point you made... 'Our Wealth was made on the backs of slaves'.. That is the standard argument the liberals give. Where were the wealthiest states of our nation?.. It wasn't Alabama. Mississippi.. not the slave states.. it was the industrial states up north.. New England and what not...
But that's just an addendum..It's the immigrants who had to do the shitty jobs anyways.. those ones where life was threatened. you think a slave owner wanted to jeopardize his 500 dollar investment by having them do some of the more life risking jobs?.. All they were risking with an Irish immigrant was a 20 cent daily wage.

But Just think about this as well.. I told Fizzing this in a PM.. Take all these Slaves that came over.. They had children.. and their children had children all the way up til the present day descendents of slaves at this moment.. In comparision to the rest of the world, how are African Americans doing?.. Many of the world's most prominent people are African Americans.. (I'm not condoning anything, just throwing out a point).. Now.. say these slaves did not come over in the boats to the Free world.. say they stayed in Uganda.. their descendents remained in Ghana and Kenya, up to the present day descendents of them at this moment now.. Living in the shitholes of economic activity and the poor standard of livings that they exist in.. Aren't those descendents of slaves much better off here in America.. I think so.. Again.. not condoning anything.. so no need for 'Well then we should begin slavery all over again' BS that is usually thrown in by the Left.. Just a thought.. you think the fact that they are in America.. as American citizens is reparation enough?..

Fizzing.. I guess we started a bit too late.. whenhiphop.. I didn't mean for you to get offended and apparently you feel the pain that surrounds this issue.. jsut a question.. what race?.. ethnicity?.. are you?.. I just don't want people to be ignorant to the entire situation.. that was the only reason I threw it out there. so that when people clamor for reparations.. just for their own knowledge.. they know where it started.. the first domino.. That's all.. If that's babbling, if that's robust ignorance (Wanting people to be aware of things out there).. well then.. I guess we'll throw you into those prayers we have her on interference,


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Old 06-25-2002, 04:01 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite

Yes.. bad things happened, but am I to blame for that (If I were a great great great grandson of a Slave owner)?.. Should I pay for it?.. Of course not.. that's ridiculous.
no you aren't to blame for that L. but your family wasn't inherently disadvantaged as some were. descendants of those clans should be brought onto equal footing. maybe straight cash reperations aren't the answer but equality should be the target.
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Old 06-25-2002, 04:10 PM   #13
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Yes.. Koba.. That is Precisely what I have been advocating.. And you just said it.. 'cash is not the way'.. I'm much more for a 'Means to Cash' is the way to bring equality.. I like 'Equal Opportunity' better.. And I think everyone should like that.. I'm sorry, Reparations .. cash.. does nothing.. What do these people who have the disadvantage of knowledge (of how to earn cash) gain from getting a fistful of cash?.. Not a thing.


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Old 06-26-2002, 01:57 PM   #14
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Ok, Lemonite, thoughtful posts, right.
Anyway my opinion differs slightly from yours...

I think cash IS the way( a veryimportant part of the way). And you know, I am not talking a bit about reparations to Afro Americans (or at least this should not be the big part - I agree with you that in some points, the American system should be made better, like equal chances, school education et al.,) but I am talking about reparations for Africans who live and die in Africa. I am talking about countries where a good percentage of the populaton is infected with HIV, and our medicare industry has nothing to give except of an "if you donīt have the money necessary to afford our expensive medicaments, sorry". I am talking about the hunger there, the endless wars, the life or death of the "normal" African (with all respect to diversity). Wars that were maybe made by Africans too, well and so? Maybe some corrupt leaders or dictators were installed by the CIA, well and so?

It is not an issue of blaming someone, it is a social issue, and money could help a great deal. By the way, Kudos to Arun, one sentence, and worth a lot.
This is one problem about it, that our rich nations donīt allow economic independence.

Ok, Iīll go now... look, I didnīt mean to talk about fault or your relation with your great great grandaddy. Sure, you canīt be made resposible in the sense that you have commited this crime; the same goes for me. Only that I think WE should have, in our age, and with our wealth, in our generation, the power to say "well things have been so unjust, and are so creepy, and so many people are always dying, that it is time to stand up for reparations". It is an issue of justice. Thatīs how I feel it.

Oh, by the way, you may know what race I am, though it doesnīt make any slightest difference... I am a whitey, right ;-) If you want, you could call me white liberal. But I am not, I canīt be defined, you know.
"Donīt worry about my name itīs too long to remember
I could tell you now but weīd be here till next september" (TAFKAP)

My name is Chiron.
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Old 06-26-2002, 02:03 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite
What do these people who have the disadvantage of knowledge (of how to earn cash) gain from getting a fistful of cash?


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school? a living?
obviously it shouldn't buy a free ride to the ivy league and an acura but education and the facilitation of life are, as you are aware, essential. whether that is done via a reasonable cash reperation or some equal gesture is not the point.

much like the welfare thing the system must be careful. those who are deserving have to be found and be granted an opportunity of life.
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