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Old 01-19-2005, 01:35 PM   #61
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Originally posted by swissair135

Because most christians are creationists. Your comments were purely intended to flame and provoke other christian members on this board, who have everY right to believe what they will. You will find that the majority of the people in your country believe this story too.. I dont agree with it, but I dont disrespect them on a public message board either.

okay, it would be much easier to write "grow up" or "go fuck yourself with the axe you want to grind," but i'll chalk all this up to the fact that you don't seem to have any idea what goes on in FYM.

we challenge ideas, dogma, beliefs. we respect everyone's right to hold beliefs, but if you come in here, you should expect them to be challenged, and you should then return that challenge. the intention is not to flame, but to debate, argue, agree, dissent, and whatever else -- if you're here looking for fuzzy affirmation, you've come to the wrong place. you have no idea what my comments were "purely intended" to do, and the more you assert what it is you think i was saying, the sillier you sound.

now, please -- get back to the discussion at hand.
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Old 01-19-2005, 01:36 PM   #62
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Originally posted by coemgen
Can you feel the love in tha room? Irvine, as a Chrstian, I don't take offense to anything you said. Let's ALL move on and put our two cents toward something more valuable.

sorry, i alredy responded

we should take your advice and move on.
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Old 01-19-2005, 01:38 PM   #63
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Gentlemen - please ignore each other. It is obvious you are both incapable of not letting emotions get the better of you.

If you don't ignore each othe, the thread will be closed. And no, siwssair, it wont be just Irvine's fault, it'll be yours as well.

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Old 01-19-2005, 01:40 PM   #64
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Beautiful response Irvine511... a stroke of genius right there All along, all I wanted was affirmation

This was a great thread, lets get back to it.
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Old 01-19-2005, 01:42 PM   #65
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Swissair, so are you an atheist?
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Old 01-19-2005, 01:53 PM   #66
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No im not.

Im a moderate christian. I believe that Jesus is the son of god, and believe that there is a god who created the planet, and all the mechanisms/systems that come with it (water cycle, gravity, ozone layer, plate tectonics, oceans etc.).

These things just didnt form on their own (IN MY OPINION! ) ..but there is no scientific proof, other than reasonable assertions based on what we know of the physical world.
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Old 01-19-2005, 02:02 PM   #67
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Thanks for sharing that. What about the atheists in the hizzous? What, if any, is the purpose to life from your atheistic perspective? I'm sincerely wanting to understand your viewpoint. klink, A.W. Irvine?
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Old 01-19-2005, 02:05 PM   #68
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Originally posted by coemgen
Judah, thanks for responding. I understand that we can attach meaning to our lives without considering a creator. I'm talking about meaning that we don't have to attach — a genuine purpose. Something bigger than anything we can attach. (And, to clear things up, my faith isn't based on mythologies.)

You said that you really, really, really hope there is no God because you would feel special and unique if you were the result of radomness. I don't mean this to sound bad, but does that mean you're happy being considered an accident? I'm seriously just wandering. I'm not trying to start a big argument or anything. I just want to understand this point of view. As far as being designed for God's purpose, that's only part of it. As a Christian, I also believe he created me out of love. It's much like your parents having you as a baby. It was done more so out of love than for their own purpose. If God is God, he doesn't need any of us for his purpose, he created us out of love. Maybe that sounds trite to others here, but think about it. Does that make sense?
Thanks for your genuinely polite post.

I guess, to boil it down, my point was that a God is not required when one is not necessary. I have yet to see an argument that convinces me that a creator is required to most satisfactorily explain existence. Of course, "necessity" is subjective and, so, you have the presence of many religions, Gods, mythologies to put purpose to one's existence.

And, yes, i still say i would find less purpose in life if there WAS a God, then when there isn't. How much more precious and special life seems when we know there isn't someone taking care of us and that don't worry we'll have eternal afterlife to have a way better existence than this one. Doesn't it feel more important to think that it's all up to us? It's up to us to take care of each other? I find way more urgency in that thought and way more responsibility.

To answer your question re: being happy i'm an accident: i am just happy "being" period. And i find purpose in life because life seems inherently purposeful and, therefore, important. Anything else i.e. an ultimate answer to existence...an answer to our collective "purpose"...would be a bonus...but, also, to me, an answer or answers must be consistent with what we humans depend upon to guide us through existence. Ultimately, the best way i've seen to get those answers is through the language of science, logic, etc....what A-Wanderer has so eloquently laid out in the posts here. Reliance on God, religions, to get these answers, and therefore an explanation to one's "purpose" is an all-too-convenient short cut (to me). (But also an understandable one.)

You never said this, but a bias i sense sometimes from thiests is that they think athiests are not spiritual that they can't find the wonder in a Godless universe or existence. Far from the truth. I'd argue the opposite. Athiests find just as much real spiritual beauty in existence. We just don't need a God to appreciate the beauty and importance of the answers we find or the experiences we have.
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Old 01-19-2005, 02:08 PM   #69
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"and therefore an explanation to one's "purpose" is an all-too-convenient short cut (to me). (But also an understandable one.)"

-I appreciate and understand this point. However, isnt it all too convenient to "not scratch beneath the surface" sort of speak. We know the science of the world, but do want to know "who" is behind the science.

I guess both are convenient and self-serving.
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Old 01-19-2005, 02:18 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissair135
"-I appreciate and understand this point. However, isnt it all too convenient to "not scratch beneath the surface" sort of speak. We know the science of the world, but do want to know "who" is behind the science.

I guess both are convenient and self-serving.

Nobody's not scratching beneath the surface (or something!)...it's the methodology, i suppose, that's at the heart of the God-Not-God debates.

Sometimes wanting to know "who" is behind the science becomes biased when people assume there's gotta be a "who."

In the end, many people find it easy to end the discussion by saying that it's all about faith (i'm not saying you, swissair): "It's beyond science to be able to prove or disprove the idea of God...and, really, you don't need to go there. Either you have faith or you don't."

Ah, but who wants to go there right now (i.e. faith vs science)?
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Old 01-19-2005, 02:24 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Thanks for sharing that. What about the atheists in the hizzous? What, if any, is the purpose to life from your atheistic perspective? I'm sincerely wanting to understand your viewpoint. klink, A.W. Irvine?

that's a hard one. i don't know anymore. i'm also not an atheist -- i'm an agonstic. so God is really incidental to what i'm about to write.

i used to think that the purpose of life was a journey of self-discovery, to find a way to throughly express yourself so that you leave a mark in some small way, but that "mark" (whatever it might be) would never have been there had you not existed. you could call it self-actualization -- coming to understand your unique worth to the world.

lately, as i've grown up and watched so many beliefs crumble before me, i'm beginning to think of life as more something to be survived. i know there are things i'm looking for -- understanding, insight, explanations, etc. but i don't know that those are reallyl worthwhile endpoints, since the journey and the process is what matters.

i suppose i now see the purpose of life as something of a challenge, to do the best you can with what you've been given. and also something of obligation, to give back to those who gave to you. to live an ethical life as well, i think. and you really don't need God, let alone religion, to lead such a life.

but purpose is devoid of meaning. the post-modernist in me wants to say that there is no universal "meaning" -- that meaning is alll self-created, has no objective or universal components, essentially that "there's no there there." and i do think that's true. but perhaps the subjectivity of meaning is what's universal?
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Old 01-19-2005, 02:25 PM   #72
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though the persons quoted argument at the beginning this statment mentioned that people only want to believe in a God for some sort of comfort in the after life... Is it not a fact though that the worldwide and long time believe or need in some sort of God means there is some sort of spirituality already inbuilt in the majority of us?.. from the dawn of mankind people have taken a bit of wood or stone and start carving it and worshiping it claiming it is a God of some sort

People have turn to animals the stars and worship them for some sort of spiritual satisfaction....

why would evolution have such an inbuilt desire for a belief in some sort of God? if there is no such things and we are just a bunch of dna cells, whatever which gradually thrown together and developed for a little while then die?

why do people continually seem to search for the reason of their existence and purpose in life like no other animal in the planet?

and if the instinct to worship something higher than ourselves exists and seems to be a large part of being a human surely this is evidence there is a God or creator who built this into us?

It just would not make sense for evolution to be responsible for this fluke

He also mentioned that certain men of science were perscuted in the middle ages by the churches.. yet he failed to mention that those who tried to translate the bible to the ordinary people were also classed as heretics and put to death by the very same churches because of their love of Gods word.. they were also burnt and tortured,

would they sacrifice their lives so easily if their belief did not have a very powerful affect on their lives in some way when they read it?

So that it compelled them to carry out their translations knowing it could easily mean their death? so we today where ever we are can have a bible in our homes
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Old 01-19-2005, 02:32 PM   #73
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because we fear death and the unknown. we cannot wrap our heads around the experience of death, nor life, really, so creation myths are established and worlds beyond this one are invented.
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Old 01-19-2005, 02:42 PM   #74
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Judah, thanks for the reply. I do want you to know, although we see things differently, I respect your view point.
From my perspective, and I know you've probably heard this before, but it really does take more faith to be an atheist than to be a Christian. Let's take a look at our own bodies for example (OK, I know that just sounded really weird. I hope nobody looked down on their lap or anything.) You have a mouth, right? It's a hole for food to go into, right? (among other things). Well, do you really think it's just by chance that their happens to be teeth in their too to help chew food up? The chances of something being formed like that on accident must be astronomical. But let's not stop there. There's taste buds on the tongue as well to enjoy foods and be able to differentiate between types of foods. So now it just so happens that we all happen to have mouths, teeth and a tongue with taste buds. Then there's the throat, where the food travels down to the stomach, where it's broken down. I know you know the rest, about how our bodies actually take nutrients out of the food for their own benefit, and then of course, the unfortunate part about the food leaving out body. I'd love to hear from a scientist the probability of our bodies just coming together and having that whole system in place AND functioning. To me, it sounds like it was designed. And that's not including sight, smell, touch, emotions, sex, etc. I don't mean this post to be demeaning in tone or anything. But think about it? Plus, back to the food thing, there just happens to be food on the Earth we find ourselves on for us to eat? Our bodies can't survive without it, but they're there. You know what I mean? To say our existence came to being all by accident or randomness is like throwing the pieces of a trillion piece jigsaw puzzle up in the air and watching it land all together. Actually, that's even a weak analogy.
Now, if there is a creator, what does that mean? WHY were we created? To me, you actually answered that question when you said Atheists are spiritual. That spiritual yearning you have (we all have) is, I believe, your yearning for a relationship with God. That's why we were created. Your admiration of the beauty in creation actually is a form of glorifying God. What do you think of this?
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Old 01-19-2005, 02:43 PM   #75
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by annj
[B]though the persons quoted argument at the beginning this statment mentioned that people only want to believe in a God for some sort of comfort in the after life...

why would evolution have such an inbuilt desire for a belief in some sort of God? if there is no such things and we are just a bunch of dna cells, whatever which gradually thrown together and developed for a little while then die?

why do people continually seem to search for the reason of their existence and purpose in life like no other animal in the planet?

and if the instinct to worship something higher than ourselves exists and seems to be a large part of being a human surely this is evidence there is a God or creator who built this into us?"

Good questions, annj. But, i see you conclude that there can only be one answer (i.e. "surely this is evidence there is a God.")

"Why do people continually seem to search for the reason of their existence...?"...one explanation would be because we/they have the ability. Why did these spiritual notions or abilities evolve in humans? I don't think we have the answers to the "why" they started (or maybe we do...uh, A_Wanderer?). But why have they remained part of our evolution? Possible answers could be that it's a survival instinct. Because our brains evolved to have self-awareness, we also evolved with the capacity to ask such existential questions, to wonder about our place in the universe, we needed answers. And, as a species, we are very answer-hunting...we do not like vacuums. Notions of God or gods or otherness to explain the unexplained are there because of a lack of other probable answers.

I don't know...could be thousands of reasons why we have this need for spirituality. But just because we have the need, doesn't mean the only answer is God.
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