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Old 02-03-2005, 09:06 AM   #46
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Irvine, you are doing a great job here!


And, for the record, I have terrible gaydar
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Old 02-03-2005, 09:08 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
did you see "The Talented Mr. Riply"?

well, i look *exactly* like Jude Law in that movie.

exactly.
Can I just say that if this were true I would be on your doorstep later tonight, gay or straight...

Also, thank you for putting yourself out there in this thread.
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Old 02-03-2005, 09:36 AM   #48
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Originally posted by angel_of_L.A.


My parish has gay-lesbian spiritual retreats.


Ok, my question:

Are you wearing jeans?

What other bands besides U2 do you listen to?

since i have the week off from work -- starting a new job, (and got a promotion!) tomorrow -- i am in a pair of nylon athletic pants and a blue-hooded sweatshirt. i haven't shaved in two days. it's been a great week!

i wear jeans a lot -- i have a job where i can usually wear them to work, which is great, because i love them so. especially Lucky jeans.

bands other than U2: REM, Bruce Springsteen, Radiohead, Lucinda Williams, Elvis Costello, Coldplay, Aimee Mann, Kate Bush, Meshell N'degeocello, Stones, Beatles, Beach Boys, Blur, and many more
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Old 02-03-2005, 09:41 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



since i have the week off from work -- starting a new job, (and got a promotion!) tomorrow -- i am in a pair of nylon athletic pants and a blue-hooded sweatshirt. i haven't shaved in two days. it's been a great week!

i wear jeans a lot -- i have a job where i can usually wear them to work, which is great, because i love them so. especially Lucky jeans.

bands other than U2: REM, Bruce Springsteen, Radiohead, Lucinda Williams, Elvis Costello, Coldplay, Aimee Mann, Kate Bush, Meshell N'degeocello, Stones, Beatles, Beach Boys, Blur, and many more
Congratulations on your new job and promotion!!!
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Old 02-03-2005, 09:46 AM   #50
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Thanks Irvine- your the man
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Old 02-03-2005, 09:47 AM   #51
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Thanks Irvine- your the man

right back at you.

and i always appreciate the honesty of your comments -- you're not afraid to say what you think, and there's a sincerity in all your posts that i find really compelling.
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Old 02-03-2005, 10:09 AM   #52
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Is there currently a better term than "fag hag" to describe women with lots of gay male friends?
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Old 02-03-2005, 10:31 AM   #53
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Originally posted by Irvine511
...as for marriage ... i think it's safe to say that marriage is first and foremost a legal contract. there is nothing sacred about civil marriage. essentially, it comes down to rights, tax breaks, and giving people tools to create monogamous relationships which benefit everyone. i would also argue that even 40 years ago we had marriages, especially in the South, that are illegal today. Loretta Lynn was married when she was 14. Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 year old cousin! today, we call this statuatory rape, despite it's 5,000 years of tradition where men in their 40s and 50s took barely pubescent wives.

Exactly. Why have a liberal constitution when you don't intend to use it?
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Old 02-03-2005, 10:34 AM   #54
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Thanks Irvine, I will check out PFLAG. I have of course heard about it but it is definitely another thing to take a serious look at the literature and attend a meeting. I am very concerned about my friend because she has had three suicide attempts since I've met her, two of which were in the last six months.

I have a gay friend in Madrid that had to take a break from the US and he has suggested a few things for me to look at. There is a ton of literature. It gets overwhelming when I look at it all. I'm not really sure where to start. However, I'll contact the folks at PFLAG in SLC. (Yeah, I'm about 45 min. south of Salt Lake.) I am sure they have specific recommendations for friends and families from a religious background and how to support somebody that also comes from a strong religious upbringing. I can imagine the difficulty of coming out in American society but to compound that with a deep Christian upbringing has to be hard.

It doesn't bother me that she is attracted to women, what really concerns me is that her first lesbian relationship was not positive. It was very abusive. That, compounded with her history of depression and the recent "calls for help" have my wife and me very concerned. What we have tried to do is make our home open to her as a sort of safe haven when she needs it.

Any way, it is a precarious situation right now but I am optimistic. Thanks again.

Another question that follows up on some of the marriage issues that have been presented:

I have my religious beliefs but I will not force them on somebody that doesn't share them. I also fully endorse the separation of church and state. The same liberties that allow me to worship the way I want should equally protect a person that leads a lifestyle contrary to what I believe. Therefore, I cannot in good conscience approve legistation that limits a persons civil liberites and benefits that are the result of a legal civil union (i.e. insurance benefits, tax breaks). My question may be poorly articulated and I have to plead partial ignorance, but I have spoken to the few gay friends and acquaintences about this issue.

Would you be okay if there was legislation that approved civil unions, granting you and your partner all the same legal benefits as a hetersexual marriage, even if it was called something different? I know there are a lot of underlying issues, and from what I can gather there are diverging opinions within the gay community. From what my friend in Madrid has explained, there are people that want their marriage to be just as legally and socially accepted as their Baptist neighbors' marriage down the street. Then there are those that are fine with a "civil union" that is legally binding like a marriage but doesn't use the same word.

Thoughts?

(Thanks again for starting this thread.)
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Old 02-03-2005, 11:01 AM   #55
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I am kind of embarasssed even to ask this, when I have so many gay and lesbian friends, but there is something I have always wondered about.

Why would a lesbian who is totally unattracted to men be attracted to butch lesbians who look/act just like men?!? Wouldn't the idea be to be attracted to the most femine of females?
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Old 02-03-2005, 11:06 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl
Is there currently a better term than "fag hag" to describe women with lots of gay male friends?

it's interesting ... while i think the term can be cute, most gay men who talk about their "fag hags" to other gay men usually mean it in the pejorative. there are many women, who tend to be insecure, who surround themselves with gay men because they crave male attention. this is distinct from other straight female friends who aren't looking for any special kind of affirmation -- those we call "friends." one thing i am aware of, and many other gay men are aware of, is that many women can actively seek out gay friends simply because they are gay, and they think this makes them look trendy, or hip, or sophistocated, or whatever. it's kind of how, if you went to an all-white high school, the few black kids get turned into mini-celebrities and everyone is quick to say just how wonderful they are because all the white kids are so eager to prove that they're not racist. the same structure is in place here. no one likes to be a novelty act, and the term "fag hag" is usually for those women seeking the novelty of gay men, and seeing gay before they're seeing the friend.

that said, there are some women who have lots of gay friends because they simply have qualities that gay men (in general) find very endearing. one of my closest female friends is like this. she's a bit brassy, a bit loud, a bit lewd, has an amazing sense of style, and don't take shit from no one. when we go out to gay bars (once in a blue moon), she gets more attention than i do. i remember taking her to a mostly gay party once, and by the end of the evening, she was being spoon fed homemade peach cobbler by a cadre of adoring gay men.

she, however, is not a hag, she's a friend.

i would guess that you're a friend, not a hag.
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Old 02-03-2005, 11:07 AM   #57
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I have some questions hope I'm not very intrusive..

*have you ever had to deal with a girl who had a crush on you?

* (i don't know how to ask this ): how do you feel when people identify you by your orientation, instead of other aspects of your persona?
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Old 02-03-2005, 11:07 AM   #58
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Exactly. Why have a liberal constitution when you don't intend to use it?

beats me.
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Old 02-03-2005, 11:19 AM   #59
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Originally posted by U2utah2U


Another question that follows up on some of the marriage issues that have been presented:

I have my religious beliefs but I will not force them on somebody that doesn't share them. I also fully endorse the separation of church and state. The same liberties that allow me to worship the way I want should equally protect a person that leads a lifestyle contrary to what I believe. Therefore, I cannot in good conscience approve legistation that limits a persons civil liberites and benefits that are the result of a legal civil union (i.e. insurance benefits, tax breaks). My question may be poorly articulated and I have to plead partial ignorance, but I have spoken to the few gay friends and acquaintences about this issue.

Would you be okay if there was legislation that approved civil unions, granting you and your partner all the same legal benefits as a hetersexual marriage, even if it was called something different? I know there are a lot of underlying issues, and from what I can gather there are diverging opinions within the gay community. From what my friend in Madrid has explained, there are people that want their marriage to be just as legally and socially accepted as their Baptist neighbors' marriage down the street. Then there are those that are fine with a "civil union" that is legally binding like a marriage but doesn't use the same word.

Thoughts?

(Thanks again for starting this thread.)


best of luck with your friend.

you're right, there are mixed feelings in the gay community about the whole marriage rights issue. generally, there are three groups:

1. total marriage equality -- marriage is viewed as a civil right, and the denial of these rights is tantamount to second class citizenship, being 3/5ths of a person. the declaration of independence says that all people are entitled to the rights of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," and if you feel you need marriage to be able to pursue happiness, you're constitutional rights are being trampled on as well. the reason why civil unions are not enough is because, if we see marriage as an ideal, than having a sort of Plan B, a "marriage lite" option, will actually do more to weaken marriage.

2. civil unions -- many gay people actually agree that marriage should be between men and women. this might be due to cultural conditioning, or maybe they simply don't care, or maybe they do agree with traditionalists. however, they feel there must be some sort of structure in place for long term couples to have hospital visitation rights, inheritance rights, adoption rights, etc. this is before my time, but i have heard stories of, say, a long term couple where one dies of cancer, or AIDS, or a car accident, or whatever. perhaps the deceased had financial assets, property, etc. there is nothing that could legally prevent the deceased's parents from seizing control of his assets, and leaving the long term partner with absolutely nothing. sometimes, particuarly in the past, this was done out of spite for the partner. civil unions provide protection for same sex couples without freaking out the masses too much. many see civil unions as a necessary first step, and marriage as a future goal.

3. no unions -- there are others in the gay community who see themselves as social outsiders, and are happy to be as such. they see society in highly ironized terms, and want little to do with domestic trappings, or think marraige, even for heterosexuals, as a total sham. they want to forge their own way through life, to live independent of another person, to have free and open sexual relationships whenver and with whomever they choose, and see this as a path of human liberation from social constraints that have been shucked off the past half century or so.


as for myself, i fall into the pro-marriage camp. but i'll settle for civil unions. generally speaking, the younger you go, the more traditional gay people see themselves. whereas the idea of a stable relationship, and maybe children, was unthinkable for gay men who are now in their 50s, it is now a very attainable reality for gay men in their 20's (like me). some gay men abhor the idea of monogamy (as do some straight men). for me, while i don't think i would leave a long term relationship solely because of infidelity, i see monogamy as a worthwhile goal. i want a monogamous relationship, i want stability, and i see marriage as the best way to go about creating these things.
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Old 02-03-2005, 11:23 AM   #60
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Quote:
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I am kind of embarasssed even to ask this, when I have so many gay and lesbian friends, but there is something I have always wondered about.

Why would a lesbian who is totally unattracted to men be attracted to butch lesbians who look/act just like men?!? Wouldn't the idea be to be attracted to the most femine of females?

i really don't know, but i know what you are talking about. as for myself, i am attracted to very masculine men -- the Russel Crowe's of the world (minus the whole being-a-total-asshole part). but women and men are different.

the only thing i can offer is that lesbians are attracted, usually, to other lesbians. what one women finds to be attractive in another probably goes much deeper than the more cosmetic attractions that men tend to be intially turned on by.

and lesbians have a vagina, whether butch or femm. men don't.

it might be as simple as that.

can any lesbians out there expand on this?
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