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Old 06-02-2005, 08:52 AM   #361
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Originally posted by u2bonogirl
Ive got a question for ya since Jude Law came up
What exactly is it about him that attracts so many gays?
I understand that he's extremely good looking but theres other good looking men out there that just dont have the same sort of gay following.
but hey, if i was a guy I'd probably do him


not sure ... i think he's of a transcendent beauty, more unique than most. he's distinctive, in the fashion of Paul Newman, as opposed to a more blandly handsome person like Brad Pitt.

he's also a good actor, and has played a couple of gay roles ... one in "midnight in the garden of good and evil" and another, i think. and we did get to see him naked in "talented mr. ripley."

i think he's also got a "quality," if you will, that makes him seem plausibly gay, even though it appears, by all accounts, that he's totally hetero.
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Old 06-02-2005, 08:59 AM   #362
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Originally posted by Irvine511




1. by "sound gay" i assume you mean if my voice is high, if i have a lisp, if i endlessly reference show tunes and Liza Minelli. the answer, to all those things, is no. however, i do sound gay because most gay people sound like me.

2. i wish it were me but it is Jude Law.

3. the most derogratory term we have for straight people are "Republicans."

just kidding -- the closest thing to "poof" would be to call straight people "breeders." but the more common term would be "straights" or "heteros."
About sounding gay, I basically meant being camp. I am intrigued as to why a vast majority of gay people are camp, is it natural, is it a bit exaggurated etc..?

I sound a bit brash, but thats the point. I'm honestly interested. Whilst being 100% straight in the way I love women, have no sexual urges towards men and the like, I think gay people have very intersting qualities I both share and am fascinated by.
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Old 06-02-2005, 09:06 AM   #363
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About sounding gay, I basically meant being camp. I am intrigued as to why a vast majority of gay people are camp, is it natural, is it a bit exaggurated etc..?

I sound a bit brash, but thats the point. I'm honestly interested. Whilst being 100% straight in the way I love women, have no sexual urges towards men and the like, I think gay people have very intersting qualities I both share and am fascinated by.


i don't know enough about camp as i should, but i do know that one of the seminal works on camp is Susan Sontag's "Notes on Camp" -- i read it years ago, and i recommend it if you're interested. i would also say that the vast majority of gay people are not camp, but many campy gay people are very easy to notice.

i think that gay people are camp for a few reasons ... the main one is that when you are in the position of being a perpetual outsider, you tend to find yourself in a role of observation, so you notice the different signs and signifiers of social contact and context that those who are able to fully participate in the dominant paradigm might not be as keenly tuned into. the result of this, sometimes, is to then be able to ironize your existence, to see the silliness and ridiculousness behind the machinations of society -- everything from weddings to first dates to report cards -- and then to take what might not be obvious to some, and to blow it up. gay people, in this sense, have lots in common with jewish people, in my opinion. it's not too much of a secret that the great American comedians tend to be either African-American or Jewish, and being out of the mainstream helps a comic since a good comic's job is to point out the absurdity of everyday life. i think gay people do this, but in a naturally more flamboyant manner -- take a look at Drag Queens. while i have absolutely no interest in women's clothing (either taking it off or putting it on), i love Drag Queens and have never laughed harder than i do at the few drag shows i've seen. i would say that what separates the Drag Queen from the Jewish or black comic is that the gay performance is a bit more multi-dimensional, it involves both cutting observations as well as clothes, music, dance, and performance and presentation.

those are just my initial impressions and observations. i'm sure lots of great writing has been done on this topic.
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Old 06-02-2005, 09:25 AM   #364
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i love Drag Queens and have never laughed harder than i do at the few drag shows i've seen.
I have never laughed harder in my life than I did at a John Kelly (Joni Mitchell impersonator) performance. I guess that's different than a drag show but it just popped into my head for the first time in years. If you ever get a chance to see him, go. I nearly died laughing but you might have to know every nuance of Joni's singing style to really appreciate it.

/end random comment
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Old 06-02-2005, 06:28 PM   #365
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Originally posted by Irvine511




the genesis of homophobia?

there's a long answer and a short answer.

short: we fear difference, and i think it's rather natural to find a sexual act that is not to your liking unappealing, if not disgusting. there are some sex acts that i am totally uninterested in, so i understand where a straight men would find the idea of two men having sex gross (yet, they seem to like "lesbians" making out). however, there's a huge difference between finding something gross, and claiming that something is "wrong" or "immoral" simply because the Bible tells you so (and then plead innocence to bigotry because, golly gosh, it's not me saying it, it's the Bible!!!) this is then combined with the idea that all gay men are simpering, limp-wristed half-men (i.e., essentially female), so i'd almost say that homophobia is rooted more in misogyny and sexism than anything else, the idea that femininity is at its core inferior to masculinity. and there's also the idea that one can "turn" gay, which means, in essence, to be feminized -- hence the use of anal rape by men on men in war or otherwise as a means of subjugation.
'The idea that feminity is at its core inferior to masculinity' is one that every woman can understand; we live with that one from the second we are born to the day we die, much to the anger of many of us. If men wished to understand one of the many reasons women can be so hard on men ('men are pigs', etc.) they need look no farther than this. Women are sick and tired of being devalued, patronized and denegrated just for lacking a bit of anatomy.

And as you say, it also ties into homophobia.

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Originally posted by Irvine511



long: it's challenging for people to imagine that a different way of being human is not only acceptable, but as good as how they understand themselves. also, the "value," i think, gay people bring to the human family is to prove that we can and do exist beyond our capacity to reproduce. that's also a scary notion, especially if you root your worldview in a sort of God-Country-Family mindset. a huge discussion could follow, but the essence of it is simple.
The sort of people who carry the God-Country--Family mindset do not automatically hate/devalue a straight man or woman who, for strictly medical reasons, is even less likely to reproduce than a gay man or lesbian woman. Of course that's just another sign of the mental laziness of these people; they wouldn't even recognize their own strange double standard there.
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Originally posted by Irvine511



I do believe that, very simply, people who are homophobic have very closed, rigid minds and cannot (or choose not to) deal with difference, diversity, unconvention, ambiguity, and complexity.

Or have simply been steeped all their lives in the intellectual laziness of society--don't think about what we do, just do as we do. Conform, and don't ask why.

As much as we may try, some people just will not/cannot be taught to think for themselves.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


as for America ... on a global scale, our society is verant. i'd be beheaded in Saudi Aery tolrabia, stoned to death in Afghanistan, and jailed in Egypt. American cities are great places to be gay, as urban Americans are as sophistocated and accepting of diversity as anyone else on earth. the probablem with more rural parts of America -- yes, forgive me for stereotyping, but we're speaking in broad strokes here -- is that 1) you can move to a town where you do not have to deal with people who are different from yourself, so you never have to encounter anyone who isn't a white Christian hetero, so it's easy to deamonize those who are different, and 2) there's no quesiton that Christianity is more important to the fabric of American life than it is to our Western counterparts in Europe and Australia; sadly, many churches and politicians have used Christianist homophobic bigotry -- to the point where it seems as if the Bible is nothing more than an anti-gay pamphlet -- in order to mobilize their masses to get to the voting booth. its' really no different than how racism was used to convert, post 1968, racist Dixiecrats into Republicans.
I believe conformity and fear of being the outsider also have a part in this. I grew up, and now live, in rural America. In places like this if you are different or think differently than the majority, you are the outsider, the weird one, singled out; and in a small town, there is no escape from a label. This is why homosexual teens have a rough time in rural areas, of course.

But trust me when I tell you that anyone who holds an idea contrary to the majority opinion is in almost as rough a place, especially during adolescence. I suspect that peer pressure in such places is enough to encourage many people, in youth, to stop considering different ideas, like maybe gays aren't the soldiers of satan (or whatever the term is this week.)

So, it's not just that you can remain fully insultated 'among your own kind' in rural areas. It's that the shoulder-to-shoulder atmosphere of small towns encourages, and sometimes forces conformity on those who can't or won't leave, until their minds become so petrified that they are no longer capable of considering a new idea.

BTW, thanks for your answer! It was really a great idea to start this thread, and you're very generous to take the time to answer our questions. Round of applause for you.
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Old 06-02-2005, 07:29 PM   #366
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Old 06-07-2005, 12:56 AM   #367
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

if we could meld larry's face and body, Bono's charisma, Edge's brain, and Adam's willy -- a perfect man you'd have.
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Old 06-07-2005, 05:37 AM   #368
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Originally posted by Irvine511

if we could meld larry's face and body, Bono's charisma, Edge's brain, and Adam's willy -- a perfect man you'd have.

Hey now what's wrong with the other boy's willies?? huh
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Old 06-07-2005, 03:58 PM   #369
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Hey now what's wrong with the other boy's willies?? huh


i've only ever seen Adam's willy, on the cover of achtung baby.

the others, i cannot speak for.

though i wonder if there are some PLEBA people who haven't got some very interesting pix out there ...
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Old 06-08-2005, 06:31 AM   #370
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Originally posted by Irvine511




i've only ever seen Adam's willy, on the cover of achtung baby.

the others, i cannot speak for.

though i wonder if there are some PLEBA people who haven't got some very interesting pix out there ...
Well true...But if I had to guess from pics then..

Wouldnt those pics to be to die for,but imagination sometimes can be more exciting,dont you think
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Old 06-16-2005, 01:10 PM   #371
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a friend of mine just wrote this to me, and i thought it was very, very interesting and a great way of putting a human face on the whole marriage equality debate:



"$748. That is how much money I just "paid" the federal government. Now, normally I'm not the kind of person who complains about paying taxes. Sure, I'd love to keep all the money I make, but all the money I make is not mine to keep. There are lots of benefits that I receive just by being an American, and there are many Americans who are just as deserving who benefit from the programs our tax dollars fund. This tax money is money I can afford to let go, and if others need it, who am I to make a claim?

This past year I have been working my butt off. I have taken almost a dozen trips, talked to hundreds of people, met with PhDs, Directors, Captains and Majors in the Army, been on a zillion planes in a zillion cities in a zillion airports. I have worked hard. I have enjoyed my work and I have been compensated with a bonus because of it. I deserved that bonus and the raise I got, but I did not deserve the hit of the federal government taking $748 of my dollars away.

Why, you might ask?

Well, also in the last year I got married. And because I married a woman, I *had* to get married in Massachusetts. Yes, it is where I live, so it was no real hardship, but because it is something only this state allows me to do, my rights and responsibilities associated with being married end when I cross any state line. When either of us visits our families in NY, we are technically not married, and when we go for emergency hospital room visits in Rochester, we are not married. When we go to our favorite beach in Rhode Island, we are not married. When we talk about buying a house, we have to look in Mass. because living anywhere else means we are not married. When we paid our federal income tax this year, we were not married. We did not receive any of the federal benefits of every straight married couple in this country.

So here I am, traveling the country for work, recruiting people to go to school to become social workers with a focus on the Army and social workers to provide services to those coming back from war, and I am not a full citizen. No, I do not belong to the armed services. In fact, they would kick me out if I was. But I spend my days giving something back to this country. I spent time away from my family and home to do this work. It's time this country give me what I deserve, too. And if not, at least give me back my fucking money."
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Old 06-16-2005, 01:18 PM   #372
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wow. that sounds really unfair to me

I have a really dumb question, and I dont remember it being asked before so here goes.
Is it possible, if a man is attracted to other men, and he himself is attractive to actually find himself to be a turn on?
I know that sounds kind of weird but Im really wondering
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Old 06-16-2005, 02:35 PM   #373
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Old 06-16-2005, 02:54 PM   #374
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I have a really dumb question, and I dont remember it being asked before so here goes.
Is it possible, if a man is attracted to other men, and he himself is attractive to actually find himself to be a turn on?
I know that sounds kind of weird but Im really wondering
Well, I'm perfectly straight, but I find myself incredibly handsome as well as a major turn-on.
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Old 06-16-2005, 05:04 PM   #375
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Originally posted by Irvine511
a friend of mine just wrote this to me, and i thought it was very, very interesting and a great way of putting a human face on the whole marriage equality debate:



"$748. That is how much money I just "paid" the federal government. Now, normally I'm not the kind of person who complains about paying taxes. Sure, I'd love to keep all the money I make, but all the money I make is not mine to keep. There are lots of benefits that I receive just by being an American, and there are many Americans who are just as deserving who benefit from the programs our tax dollars fund. This tax money is money I can afford to let go, and if others need it, who am I to make a claim?

This past year I have been working my butt off. I have taken almost a dozen trips, talked to hundreds of people, met with PhDs, Directors, Captains and Majors in the Army, been on a zillion planes in a zillion cities in a zillion airports. I have worked hard. I have enjoyed my work and I have been compensated with a bonus because of it. I deserved that bonus and the raise I got, but I did not deserve the hit of the federal government taking $748 of my dollars away.

Why, you might ask?

Well, also in the last year I got married. And because I married a woman, I *had* to get married in Massachusetts. Yes, it is where I live, so it was no real hardship, but because it is something only this state allows me to do, my rights and responsibilities associated with being married end when I cross any state line. When either of us visits our families in NY, we are technically not married, and when we go for emergency hospital room visits in Rochester, we are not married. When we go to our favorite beach in Rhode Island, we are not married. When we talk about buying a house, we have to look in Mass. because living anywhere else means we are not married. When we paid our federal income tax this year, we were not married. We did not receive any of the federal benefits of every straight married couple in this country.

So here I am, traveling the country for work, recruiting people to go to school to become social workers with a focus on the Army and social workers to provide services to those coming back from war, and I am not a full citizen. No, I do not belong to the armed services. In fact, they would kick me out if I was. But I spend my days giving something back to this country. I spent time away from my family and home to do this work. It's time this country give me what I deserve, too. And if not, at least give me back my fucking money."

Thank you for posting this.So wrong....
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