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Old 02-10-2005, 09:11 AM   #166
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Well, you're a bigger person than me, Irvine. I'm not even gay and I don't think I could have anything more than an acquaintanceship with someone who believed homosexuality is a sin. I guess in my experience people who believe that also have other beliefs that are so fundamentally different from my own that it's difficult to find much common ground. I have this problem with my family and while they have always welcomed my gay friends to their dinner table, there is always that underlying judgment that I know is present, and even comments later like, "He's such a nice guy, it's just too bad that...." blah blah blah. As a result (of this and many other differences), my relationship with them is strained and formal at best.
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Old 02-10-2005, 09:18 AM   #167
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Joyfulgirl, I'm sorry to hear that your experiences with people of this belief system have been so negative. And I'm even more sorry to hear how often this happens.

I hope we can all realize that with every group there are exceptions, and that we all owe each other the respect of the benefit of a doubt. Coming from someone of my position, I also realize that is a very arrogant thing to say.

Such a difficult issue . . . I wish there were easier answers.
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Old 02-10-2005, 09:32 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
I wonder if it would not be akin to my not being able to be truly close to someone who believes that women are not fully equal (ie. not fully human, whether they state it that way or not). I can be friends on a certain casual level, but with that lack of basic respect, any sort of true relationship becomes impossible.
I think this is a really good analogy because being gay isn't just something that you do that one can disagree with. It's part of the very fabric of who you.
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Old 02-10-2005, 09:34 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally posted by stammer476

I hope we can all realize that with every group there are exceptions, and that we all owe each other the respect of the benefit of a doubt.
Of course there are exceptions, although I can't actually think of any at the moment!






sorry, I know this isn't ask joyfulgirl
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Old 02-10-2005, 10:39 AM   #170
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I have a silly question-what do you think is beautiful in a woman looks-wise, and what famous women do you think are very beautiful?

Also, since you like Bruce, have you ever been to a Bruce concert?

i like very healthy looking women, not so much make up. i'd say i'd probably be more of a "butt man" than a "breast man" as i think slowly tapering backs that lead into a slender, smooth backside and smaller breasts are more attractive than the Playboy-style "tits 'n ass." these women tend to be more asian or european, in general. famous women -- gwyneth paltrow, charlize theron, emanuelle beret, etc.

yes, i have seen Bruce, in boston in 1999. amazing, amazing show. so glad i got to see him. a concert 2nd only to the Elevation show i saw (yes, bruce was better than Popmart).
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Old 02-10-2005, 10:40 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally posted by stammer476


Essentially what I'm asking is, would the subconscious knowledge of someone's religious views on homosexuality stop you from a deep friendship with them, even if they didn't play a "tangible" part in the relationship?

yes, probably.
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Old 02-10-2005, 10:45 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
I wonder if it would not be akin to my not being able to be truly close to someone who believes that women are not fully equal (ie. not fully human, whether they state it that way or not). I can be friends on a certain casual level, but with that lack of basic respect, any sort of true relationship becomes impossible.

i think that's exactly right.

an argument could be made that being a man or a woman is not something that you choose, or that there's no behavior involved. however, any gay person knows that they didn't choose to be gay, (and a straight person insisting to the contrary is one of the most gob-smackingly frustrating things i can think of ... i mean, really, just how would you know!?!?!!), and while the "homosexuals good, homosexuality (i.e., fucking) bad" argument holds more intellectual sense, it's still pretty hard to fully respect a person who holds that view.

then again, i could certainly be friends on a deep, intimate level with someone who was against pre-marital sex.

but it's not like i'm allowed to get married anyway ...

maybe if we did reduce it to a disagreement over sex, and specific acts, and the pre/post-marital aspects of it, a deeper friendship might be possible. it would have to be understood that such disagreements didn't apply exclusively to homosexuality, though.
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Old 02-10-2005, 10:49 AM   #173
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl
Well, you're a bigger person than me, Irvine. I'm not even gay and I don't think I could have anything more than an acquaintanceship with someone who believed homosexuality is a sin. I guess in my experience people who believe that also have other beliefs that are so fundamentally different from my own that it's difficult to find much common ground. I have this problem with my family and while they have always welcomed my gay friends to their dinner table, there is always that underlying judgment that I know is present, and even comments later like, "He's such a nice guy, it's just too bad that...." blah blah blah. As a result (of this and many other differences), my relationship with them is strained and formal at best.

that is what i fear. the nice-to-your-face thing. and the phrase, "what a waste!" i mean, i suppose that's meant to be a compliment, as in, you'd be great for women, you should pro-create, etc. and that's nice to hear, but it also assigns a greater importance and worth to a heterosexual's life than a homosexual's life.

and, deep down, because of the value of pro-creation, i do wonder if my life isn't somehow less "worthwhile" if i choose not to have children. i do think being a parent is the hardest and most important job in the world, and the one thing the world needs is better parents. it does seem like a waste if i am unable to contribute to that, as well as many, many other gay men i know who are very, very good with children.

sometimes, it does seem like a cruel joke.
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Old 02-10-2005, 10:50 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl


sorry, I know this isn't ask joyfulgirl

please continue to contribute however you wish! you seem to know as much, if not more, about this as i do.
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Old 02-10-2005, 10:59 AM   #175
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Originally posted by Irvine511




gosh, sounds a bit like hate the sin, love the sinner.


i have come to the conclusion that this is just a smoke screen for bigoted beliefs.


can someone have a bigoted belief and not be a bigot?

i am thinking perhaps, yes
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Old 02-10-2005, 12:10 PM   #176
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Originally posted by deep
i have come to the conclusion that this is just a smoke screen for bigoted beliefs.

can someone have a bigoted belief and not be a bigot?

i am thinking perhaps, yes
Jesus hates sin and loves the sinner. (and I'm not referring to any specific sin here)

Why is this such a difficult concept to understand?



Unless you think Jesus is a bigot?
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Old 02-10-2005, 12:16 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
i have come to the conclusion that this is just a smoke screen for bigoted beliefs.
That's quite a statement. And easy to say until you've actually had to do it. When you've been deeply hurt by someone's sin (alcoholism, infidelity, drug abuse, etc.) and found the grace to forgive them, you'll realize it's more than a "smoke screen."

Bigotry can go both ways, deep.
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Old 02-10-2005, 12:18 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Jesus hates sin and loves the sinner. (and I'm not referring to any specific sin here)

Why is this such a difficult concept to understand?



Unless you think Jesus is a bigot?

well, you're last comment is clearly related to a specific sin, which then begs the question: when did jesus hate the sin of homosexuality? when did jesus call homosexuality a sin?

and if you think about it ... a confirmed bachelor at 33, had good carpentry skills (we can probably infer good sense of interior design as well), women seemed to like him and find him non-threatening, had a posse of 12 dudes hanging on his every word ...
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Old 02-10-2005, 12:20 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally posted by stammer476


That's quite a statement. And easy to say until you've actually had to do it. When you've been deeply hurt by someone's sin (alcoholism, infidelity, drug abuse, etc.) and found the grace to forgive them, you'll realize it's more than a "smoke screen."

Bigotry can go both ways, deep.

who's harmed by homosexuality?

(and just to pre-empt, people can be harmed by irresponsible sexual behavior in the form of STDs and emotional abuse, but the transmission of STDs knows no orientation).
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Old 02-10-2005, 12:21 PM   #180
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I didn't say anyone was. I was commenting on deep's statement. While "hate the sin, love the sinner" has been misused in many cases, it can't be simply thrown out as a "smoke screen for bigoted beliefs." It's more than that.
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