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Old 03-23-2003, 08:19 AM   #76
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Originally posted by Anthony
And I'm sure the United States is sorry for supplying Saddam Hussein with the means to do so. I'm sorry the United States supported Iraq back in the 80's when it was busy killing thousands of Iranians as well as your fathers.
Anthony,

Truthfully I look forward to your posts. I admire your ability to continuously remain civil and objective.

The United States did not supply Iraq with military technology in the 1980's. The NBC...ie Nuclear Biological Chemical Technology was supplied by France and Germany. The US did remove many road blocks to allow this to occur and there was some assistance from the US in this area with dual Agricultural use materials.

I am curious though, given the history of the region, and the fact that our entire Foreign Policy in the Region was dependant on Iran prior to 1979. The oil crisis was pretty bad. I am not saying this to justify anything. I am just curious as to what your solution would be. We courted him when we feared the Iranian revolution spreading further into the region. We courted him when he finally had a small falling out with the Soviet Union.

Matt


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Old 03-23-2003, 08:28 AM   #77
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Matt;

What I DO know is that the US, through inaction or otherwise, supported Iraq. Perhaps more accurately; they did nothing.

I will believe you when you say who supplied who with what exactly, because I seriously am too troubled and too busy to look for figures that will dispute otherwise (and believe me, people can get figures from anywhere, if thats all they're worried about).

What I have heard from what I consider a reliable source, such as the BBC, is that the US did indeed supply certain weapons, because when taking sides with the Iran-Iraq war, they inevitably chose to side with Iraq. And I'm sorry, whether they sold weapons to Iraq or not is irrelevant, through some way or another, they sided with Iraq.

Evidently, the US backed the wrong horse, and that is, despite the fact that I wouldn't be able to 'explain' it to the generic Iraqi, excusable. Why shouldn't it be so? Do be certain about this, I am not saying the US is damned for all eternity because it did what it did, I am saying that this talk of 'liberation' is irresponsible as it does not take past mistakes into account. 'This' is the criticism I have always had against the US government; it acts and yet never holds itself accountable for its past mistakes - they never happened. It really makes my teeth itch to see people glorifying this 'liberation of Iraq' as some act of benevolence, when it is far from it. Of course most countries are guilty of this, the UK being the worst offender, but most countries are not THE world's superpower. Yes, America is the strongest, the most powerful and the most responsible - but it needs to set an example in humility, as well.

It is difficult for me to give an explanation or a solution to the problems of the Middle East... perhaps another thread, Dreadsox? I would argue my views most in depth, there.

Now, the reason why my response was particularly explosive, was because I do not appreciate being called out with emotive writing. If personal attacks make people wince out of annoyance, then imploring me to explain to some generic Iraqi of the evils I am not responsible for not only ruins my character but genuinely makes me feel bad. It implies things about my character in a very subtle way; it implies that I do not care for the suffering that is taking place. That, I do not accept. No more than you should have to accept people accusing you of not appreciating the value of human life just because you support the war.

I will appreciate people not to call anyone out, not to infer about what people's natures are, and to restrain the emotive nature of their writing. For those of you who aren't aware of this, the more emotive you are, the less credible your argument.

Ant.
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Old 03-23-2003, 08:38 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
Matt;

What I DO know is that the US, through inaction or otherwise, supported Iraq. Perhaps more accurately; they did nothing.

I will believe you when you say who supplied who with what exactly, because I seriously am too troubled and too busy to look for figures that will dispute otherwise (and believe me, people can get figures from anywhere, if thats all they're worried about).

What I have heard from what I consider a reliable source, such as the BBC, is that the US did indeed supply certain weapons, because when taking sides with the Iran-Iraq war, they inevitably chose to side with Iraq. And I'm sorry, whether they sold weapons to Iraq or not is irrelevant, through some way or another, they sided with Iraq.
To my knowledge, there was dual use materials sold. And yes, the US through its allies, did turn a blind eye. They did remove Iraq from the terrorist list which began to allow this kind of technology to enter Iraq. I am not claiming innocence. There were reasons though that the allies felt they must coddle up to Saddam.

Peace

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Old 03-23-2003, 08:44 AM   #79
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Indeed. Please read my newly edited post. Clearly, the US had its reasons, however, I would like the world to be reminded of that fact before glorifying this war too much.

Thanks for at least acknowledging it, Dreadsox.

Ant.
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Old 03-23-2003, 09:08 AM   #80
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I remember seeing on the first anti-war march on the news, I think it was in the US, a woman holding a placard, on it was "The only Bush I trust is my own" sorry I know the war is no laughing matter but that made me laugh!
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Old 03-23-2003, 10:30 AM   #81
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heres the deal.
that was then
this is now.

when saddam prove himself to be an incorrigible bastard the usa severied their ties w/him.

if u wanna bring out old shit from decades ago that only shows an current anti usa agenda, go ahead.
if you care about human rights of Iraqis read on.


explain that to the iraqi oppressed..that youre sorry their suffering but because what the usa did decades ago means you or your offspring are not entitled to human rights, yep youre screwed..

and the meat-grinder thing is not hype, 4 Iraqi American citizens who
fled Iraq under Saddam's rule explained this to Barbara Walters last night

Maybe you were at a rally.

Go ahead dismiss it as it goes against your polictical agenda, and ignore the human rights aspect of it as it doesnt sit well w/your agenda as well.

Just explain it to the liberated Iraqis at the right time

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Old 03-23-2003, 10:33 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
heres the deal.
that was then
this is now.
that's an awfully dangerous thing to say in politics
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Old 03-23-2003, 10:50 AM   #83
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Salome
as the world changes, people change.
change is a constant
and
change is inevitable.

Saddam has not changed.
The world has changed, therefore he has to be removed..

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Old 03-23-2003, 10:52 AM   #84
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point being?

that Saddam was an insane maniac back then
but the US still supported him because that was then and this is now??
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Old 03-23-2003, 10:54 AM   #85
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point being we gave him benifit of doubt, he failed.
were doing something about it now.

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Old 03-23-2003, 11:01 AM   #86
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Yes, that was then. But it still happened. And if Saddam killing thousands in order to get into power and then thousands of Iranians doesn't show that he's an 'incorrigible bastard', I don't know what does.

This is what I refuse to accept; you accusing me of having an anti-usa agenda by 'bringing out old shit'. You remain obstinate in this approach that anyone who sees it for what it is is anti-american, and this is simply not right. I'm not bringing 'old shit' for the sake of anti-american propaganda, because I'm not anti-american. Prior to this argument and this war, I have supported the American position ardently regarding Afghanistan in particular. I simply choose to accept my fights wisely. Its a shame President Bush does not.

I do care about human rights, thank you kindly, and I do not need to prove myself, either. And no I was not at the rally, I am not a pacifist and I do not partake in marches, and I don't agree with the anti-war coalition's stance at the moment either. The first and only rally I was ever at was the one before the war, and that is because I do believe this war will create more damage for everyone concerned in the long run.

"Go ahead dismiss it as it goes against your polictical agenda, and ignore the human rights aspect of it as it doesnt sit well w/your agenda as well. "

I truly find this line of argument offensive, and if you continue to aggravate the situation by putting words and opinions in my mouth then neither of us will have happy times. Please do not assume of my agenda, indeed, don't presume that I even have one. And, please, do not accuse me of ignoring human rights. One would construe, by implication, that you think I don't respect human life. I sincerely hope you didn't mean that.

I am asking you politely; express your opinions in a cogent argument that does not presume to know what the other person holds dear to them. I have not been personal with you until you inserted the 'explain it to them' argument, please extend the same courteousy.

Ant.
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Old 03-23-2003, 11:12 AM   #87
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okie doak, fair enough.

i feel for the Iraqi ppl and that they are being short-changed is all.
didnt mean to offend
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Old 03-23-2003, 11:16 AM   #88
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Thank you, Diamond.

Ant.
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Old 03-23-2003, 02:07 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
heres the deal.
that was then
this is now.

Interesting point of view.

Who cares Iraq got US support in the Iraq/Iran struggle, who cares if they didn't remove him in the Gulf war - when there was even an uprising ready, but it didn't work as allied forces left -, right?
(because if you cared about people like you said, you should have gotten rid of him years ago. and while we're at it, not support so many dictators like you did just because it suited US at the time. not doing anything is just as bad as helping them.)
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Old 03-23-2003, 02:21 PM   #90
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that famous picture of rumsfeld with saddam was taken shortly after saddam gassed his own people. i just thought id like to add that.

and i would also like to point out this thread has turned into a cesspool of propaganda. this thread was for anti-war supporters. hint hint.
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