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Old 06-19-2004, 10:44 AM   #46
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The whole thing, to me, comes down to admitting that there is a serious problem with a school of Islam, Wahhabism. This is the kind of Islam promoted by the Saudi state. This is where they get the whole concept of militant jihad from. They do not get it from say, the Turkish Sufis, who are also Sunni Muslims. The Turks are not the issue here. The Wahhabis are. These clerics and big shots have caused an unbelievable amount of suffering, much of it to their own people. Look at the way they treat women! Damn! It's shocking!
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Old 06-19-2004, 10:56 AM   #47
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And they export it around the world with a shitload of oil money. It is fair to say the war against terror is just a Saudi Civil War that they exported to make it the wests problem.

Is it just me or does anybody else has a real desire to bring sleazy casino towns into the middle east, I just want to setup a Las Vegas circa 1950's in the middle of the Kingdom so these rich young layabouts have somewhere to go and gamble, drink and mingle with whores rather than turn to violent Jihad. I think it is fair to say that if they that sort of release you would see a real drop in this whole fundamentalist attitude.

Because in the end - nobody can resist the allure of cheap buffets.
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Old 06-19-2004, 11:14 AM   #48
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I don't trust Saudi Arabia either. I have suspected since the first Gulf War they probably secretly hate us as much as any extremist but are playing both sides like a double agent to get what they can from us (support, protection, fighter jets) while still being in bed with our worst enemies. I don't like that, and I don't like the way they treat most of their own people.
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Old 06-19-2004, 11:25 AM   #49
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This country has *serious* human rights violations. The *niece* of the main character in the "Princess Trilogy" is a sexual abuse victim. Sultana calls her life a "life of terror". No one should have to live like this. It's horrible. These women are absolutely powerless to stop this.
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Old 06-19-2004, 11:31 AM   #50
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Dread, I found these in about 30 seconds on Google, so presumably there is more...

Condemnation prior to the killing can be found here:

Quote:
In a column published in Al-Riyadh newspaper Friday, the preacher of Riyadh's Imam Sultana Mosque urged the kidnappers to free Johnson.

"O, youth of the nation who have trodden the wrong path, come back to the fold of the community of Islam. Avoid this sedition and be obedient to the ruler of the Muslims," Sheik Mohammed bin Saad al-Saeed wrote.
Then you have this, Saudi Clerics Denounce Rising Violence:

Quote:
Six Saudi clerics once affiliated with Islamic militants, including two praised by Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, condemned a wave of attacks against westerners in the kingdom, describing the perpetrators as "a deviant group."

The clerics, all of whom have served prison time for opposing the Saudi government, called the attacks "a heinous crime" in their statement issued Sunday. The official Saudi Press Agency reported on the statement an unprecedented airing of known dissidents' remarks.

...

"We condemn the criminal acts committed by the deviant group in a number of Saudi areas in which many innocent people were killed," their statement said.

"The nation's theologians are in consensus that it is a sin to kill a life without a right, be it Muslim or non-Muslim," it said, adding that such acts would divide Muslims "at a time when other nations are uniting against them."

It also warned against calling other Muslims "infidels."
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Old 06-19-2004, 11:57 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
I think NBC might have chosen this title to catch our atention, not to make a statement what Allah wants, which obviousely worked verry well
It was designed to catch our attention. I was a little surprised it took 22 replys before the somewhat obligatory comparrison to Christianity appeared.

It seems the only thing small than the so called extremist minority teaching the violence is the actvist minority in Islam willing to stand up to and denounce the teaching.

This quote from the Saudi cleric is very telling:

Quote:
It also warned against calling other Muslims "infidels."
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Old 06-19-2004, 12:11 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


I invite you to defend a conservative on the board by expressing your outrage that we all be lumped in as circling the wagons over the torture.

In my mind, if you are upset over one, you should be equally upset over the other, since we are talking about generalizations.
Thanks, but no thanks. Political stereotypes get thrown around all the time - "bleeding heart liberal" "gun-loving conservative", etc. I don't like any of them, whether they're stereotyping liberals or conservatives, because I think it's damaging to attempt to put people in convenient labelled boxes like that. However, it doesn't really bother me enough to start a debate about it.

The reason I object to people pretending that violent extremist Muslims are representative of all Muslims is that I've seen the consequences of the racism which this attitude can give rise to. I have Muslim friends who have been physically assaulted in the street by people who think because they're Muslim they must be terrorists. I know a Muslim woman who had her headscarf torn off by a racist thug. I know people who were afraid to leave their homes in the aftermath of September 11th because they had heard horror stories of other Muslims (or even people who "looked like" Muslims) being attacked on the streets.

Political stereotypes are annoying, can sometimes limit debate and are occassionally offensive. I can think of very few instances where they lead to violence and racism in the way that stereotyping Muslims can. So while I tend to find political stereotyping irritating and boring, I don't feel strongly enough about it to engage in a long discussion about it.
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Old 06-19-2004, 12:18 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
It was designed to catch our attention. I was a little surprised it took 22 replys before the somewhat obligatory comparrison to Christianity appeared.
I assume you were referring to my post, even though I haven't actually counted the number of posts to check.

Wouldn't you have found it offensive if the thread about the protestors at Reagan's funeral had been called "Christians protest at Reagan's funeral"? Wouldn't you have pointed out that those people are a minority who have very little respect among most Christians?

I honestly find it hard to believe that there wouldn't have been objections if that thread, concerning a minority of extremist Christians, had been given a title similar to this one concerning a minority of extremist Mulsims. I don't think it's an unfair comparison and I can assure you that if there had been a thread in the last few days about Jewish or Hindu extremists then I would have used that as an example instead of the Christian example.
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Old 06-19-2004, 12:41 PM   #54
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I understand where you're coming from Fizz. This stuff has happened to people in my medieval re-enactment group who wear Middle Eastern clothing at events, particularly, of course, headscarves and veils. Someone in the Midwest got their Persian headscarf ripped off. It was ugly. This person is not even really a Muslim. The people involved in the attack screamed "you dirty terrorist". This lady's husband had served in Iraq! It was awful! It scares me. I happen to have a headscarf from Pakistan. I've never worn it because I'm petrified of being attacked by some rednecks at a truck stop in case I have to stop on the way to the event. Islamophobia is a serious problem. I won't argue with that. And Muslims as a whole do call their deity "Allah". The fine point is that the terrorists claimed that they were killing Johnson in the name of Allah, and their argument can be traced back to their Wahhabist roots, as Senator Lautenberg pointed out on CNN yesterday. That's the precise problem being addressed here. The whole idea of the Wahhabis getting control of the Arabian peninsula, as someone else pointed out, is about like the Ku Klux Klan taking over Texas. Wahhabists don't represent ordinary Muslims any more than the Klan represents all white Southerners. The Klan used to have alot of power in my state and my city, in the days of the Dixiecrats and right up to the busting up of the city government machine in the early '60's. No one could get elected governor of Alabama without the endorsement of the Klan. Fortunately we were able to clean up the mess. Nowadays a Klan endorsement is the kiss of death.
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Old 06-19-2004, 12:48 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
I assume you were referring to my post, even though I haven't actually counted the number of posts to check.

Wouldn't you have found it offensive if the thread about the protestors at Reagan's funeral had been called "Christians protest at Reagan's funeral"? Wouldn't you have pointed out that those people are a minority who have very little respect among most Christians?

I honestly find it hard to believe that there wouldn't have been objections if that thread, concerning a minority of extremist Christians, had been given a title similar to this one concerning a minority of extremist Mulsims. I don't think it's an unfair comparison and I can assure you that if there had been a thread in the last few days about Jewish or Hindu extremists then I would have used that as an example instead of the Christian example.
Actually, someone beat you to it.

The subject matter of the thread has nothing to do with Christianity.
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Old 06-19-2004, 01:37 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
It seems the only thing small than the so called extremist minority teaching the violence is the actvist minority in Islam willing to stand up to and denounce the teaching.
Of course. Religion is nothing but extremism these days. The liberal factions of nearly all religions these days is suppressed, so why would they speak up? It appears that the fanatical element of Christianity has found its home in the second Bush Administration, for instance.

Islam and Christianity are both an embarrassment in world civilization, and neither are interested in changing.

Melon
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Old 06-19-2004, 01:49 PM   #57
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I'm sorry about your friends, Verte.

But that story hit on something with me. So many people on this forum keep saying that there are reasons the people over there hate us, as if it's deserved or something? It goes the other way too. The people who expressed hatred for 'dirty terrorists' were also feeling rage and helplessness at the way Americans are judged and treated by them? It's the same thing, but I'm sure there will be no taking up for the Americans. It's all part of a sad, sorry world.
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Old 06-19-2004, 02:08 PM   #58
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That's been addressed on a Persian-culture web site, the frustration at the attacks. The feeling is that we love learning about this stuff, it has nothing to do with politics or religion as we have a rule that we must document that the topic of our studies occurred before 1600, and people should ask us why we are wearing headscarves before they tear them off. Just tearing off a headscarf........that's wrong. There is some real tension in the larger group over studying Middle Eastern stuff. There are accusations that it's unpatriotic and stuff. I don't buy that, personally, and no one else in my branch does either. One regional big shot who is opposed to us doing this tried to screw our advertising for the Middle Eastern themed event last year. Ooh, that pissed us off. This was controversial before 9/11, but it's gotten worse since then.
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Old 06-19-2004, 02:40 PM   #59
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For f##k's sake why can't we have a debate without the political attacks? What's the point of arguing for freedom of speech when you don't practice it? Why the "No one's condemning it" arguments, the right is evil, or the bringing in of other threads? I took a nice break from here for awhile when I was between cities and without internet, I was looking forward to coming back but what's funny is the same arguments are still going on and very few of them really dealing with the subject at hand.

Come on, we're all better than this.
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Old 06-19-2004, 03:17 PM   #60
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Personally, I'm on the side of those who don't think the title should be changed, and I would say that regardless of the religion being discussed here. It's just the whole free speech thing and all that. And we're all smart enough to not lump all Muslims together as evil because of the actions of some. The few out there in this world who do actually do that are, imho, moronic for doing so.

I do understand where you are coming from, though, Fizz (and it's downright horrible that all that stuff happened to people you knew. Same with you, verte. ...).

Also, the question that came up in this thread about why more people in the Middle East aren't speaking out against this stuff...well, perhaps they'd like to condemn the actions the extremists are taking, and probably silently do condemn them, but are too afraid to publicly condemn the extremists' actions, because they fear that they or their family and friends may be in trouble with the extremists should they speak up.

Angela
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