Abortion - Page 11 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-13-2007, 08:08 AM   #151
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
intedomine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 7,947
Local Time: 01:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Yeah I meant chemical castration - i don't mean to actually nut them, but to give them drugs that decrease their libedio or whatever, to at least give them a fighting chance of leading a productive life because statistics show that rape is one of the most reoffending crimes and something has to be done other then locking them up forever.

And i don't think denying someone a sexual urge when that urge makes them commit terrible crimes with chemicals is sharia level

but im derailing the thread...
I don't know if eliminating their sexual drive is necessarily the right answer.

A lot of rapists rape primarily for the thrill they get out of physically overpowering someone. A sense of power. It's not about getting their rocks off, it's about power and control.

If you castrate them, they'll just find other ways to assert and fulfil their desire to physically overpower someone, namely through torture or murder.
__________________

__________________
intedomine is offline  
Old 02-13-2007, 08:33 AM   #152
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
intedomine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 7,947
Local Time: 01:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


I would say a potential human life is more important.

Of course the debate has never been as simple as comfort vs. potential human life.
I, personally, could never place mere potential human life ahead of "comfort" or "convenience." I feel this way primarily because of issues such as rape, faulty contraception, the sheer spontanaeity of sex (ie. why should one sexual act condemn an unwilling mother to a "life sentence" of sorts) etc. etc.

The argument is endless. Everyone's opinion differs...

Now there is no proof of this at all (nor is there any proof against it), but for there to ever be a "factual" "right" or "wrong" in the abortion debate, surely what it must all boil down to is how mentally aware the unborn child/fetus is of their own feelings. How responsive are they to their/it's own death? How much do they feel it? No one can answer that.

And the whole abortion debate cannot simply be about being "for-abortion" or "against-abortion". The number of weeks a child has spent in the womb must be considered. Indeed, I've read some disturbing reports about "aborted" " crying babies" being tossed in a bin while their heart is still beating. That is disgraceful.

Can anyone therefore determine a particular moment during pregnancy in which the possibility of a woman carrying out an abortion should become illegal from that moment on. When? 5 weeks? 20 weeks? 35 weeks?

It's an endless argument? Why do we bother?
__________________

__________________
intedomine is offline  
Old 02-13-2007, 10:47 AM   #153
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Liesje


Yeah, it's none of the governments damn business. Just like if you were to get a vasectomy - that's killing the potential for human life - but no one would care b/c no one else needs to know. It's not so much that abortion is the problem, but the precedent it would set if the government were to ban them.
But I'm talking specifically about people who believe abortion is murder, yet don't want it to be made illegal.

How can someone who believes it is murder think it's not the government's business? Why do they think that murder should be a personal choice?
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 02-13-2007, 10:52 AM   #154
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


Well, this would be me, but let's make sure we're clear on terms here. While I do believe that abortion does take human life, I don't believe it is "murder." At this point--and my views on this arestill in process--I believe that not all "taking of human life" is equivalent to murder. On that much, I'm betting we agree. You might argue, for example that a soldier killing in wartime is not committing murder, and I might agree with you.

However, taking a human life is a huge thing. God did not create us to take the lives of our fellows, and when we do I believe thereis a high cost to the one who takes the life as well as to the one who loses the life. Still, in this sin-stained world, sometimes sadly, it is necessary. It should never be entered into flippantly and it should always be with a recognition of the costs involved but, yes, sometimes, it is necessary. And sometimes that "taking of life" means an abortion.
Yes, not all killing of human beings is murder. For example, if someone were trying to kill you, and you killed that person first, it would be self-defense.

But the intentional killing of an innocent human being is murder.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 02-13-2007, 11:13 AM   #155
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


yes, sometimes, it is necessary. And sometimes that "taking of life" means an abortion.
I'm curious about this. Under what conditions, besides to save the life of a mother, would you call abortion "necessary".
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 02-13-2007, 11:14 AM   #156
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by intedomine


Now there is no proof of this at all (nor is there any proof against it), but for there to ever be a "factual" "right" or "wrong" in the abortion debate, surely what it must all boil down to is how mentally aware the unborn child/fetus is of their own feelings. How responsive are they to their/it's own death? How much do they feel it? No one can answer that.

And the whole abortion debate cannot simply be about being "for-abortion" or "against-abortion". The number of weeks a child has spent in the womb must be considered. Indeed, I've read some disturbing reports about "aborted" " crying babies" being tossed in a bin while their heart is still beating. That is disgraceful.

Can anyone therefore determine a particular moment during pregnancy in which the possibility of a woman carrying out an abortion should become illegal from that moment on. When? 5 weeks? 20 weeks? 35 weeks?

It's an endless argument? Why do we bother?
Hello.

I think that a good way to start answering these questions is to take a good long look at a detailed fetal developmental timeline. It's pretty amazing.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 02-13-2007, 12:05 PM   #157
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BrownEyedBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Pedro Sula, Honduras
Posts: 3,510
Local Time: 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by intedomine


I don't know if eliminating their sexual drive is necessarily the right answer.

A lot of rapists rape primarily for the thrill they get out of physically overpowering someone. A sense of power. It's not about getting their rocks off, it's about power and control.

If you castrate them, they'll just find other ways to assert and fulfil their desire to physically overpower someone, namely through torture or murder.
Well, then it seems clear that these people cannot function properly within society. Kill ´em or jail ´em.
__________________
BrownEyedBoy is offline  
Old 02-13-2007, 12:18 PM   #158
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
redhotswami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Waiting for this madness to end.
Posts: 5,846
Local Time: 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Yes, not all killing of human beings is murder. For example, if someone were trying to kill you, and you killed that person first, it would be self-defense.
and this is where I disagree. a life is a life is a life, right? just because somebody is guilty according to our social standards, in no way lessens the life of that person. i know you're a Christian, so I just wanna point out that God loves you as much as me as much as the rapists, the murderers, etc. knowing that, how can you still justify taking other peoples lives? self defense??? isn't that the "convenience" or "comfort" that was talked about before?

i'm just asking for your opinion is all. your statement sparked these questions.
__________________
redhotswami is offline  
Old 02-13-2007, 12:27 PM   #159
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Justin24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Mateo
Posts: 6,716
Local Time: 08:41 AM
Do we consider micro organisms life? Even scientists who discovered life on mars (Even though not human) is still life. So a When a man and woman have sex or if a woman goes to a fertility clinic and is injected with sperm and the sperm and egg meet and start forming, it's life.
__________________
Justin24 is offline  
Old 02-13-2007, 12:35 PM   #160
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by redhotswami


and this is where I disagree. a life is a life is a life, right? just because somebody is guilty according to our social standards, in no way lessens the life of that person. i know you're a Christian, so I just wanna point out that God loves you as much as me as much as the rapists, the murderers, etc. knowing that, how can you still justify taking other peoples lives? self defense??? isn't that the "convenience" or "comfort" that was talked about before?

i'm just asking for your opinion is all. your statement sparked these questions.
No, it's not the same at all. The "convenience" or "comfort" talked about regarding abortion refers to not wanting to carry a baby to term for various reasons; it does not involve saving a life from the attack of a malicious person, as killing in self-defense does.

As a Christian, I am allowed to protect my own life and those around me just as anyone else would be. There is nothing in the Bible that prohibits this.

Not only does the Bible not prohibit this, but the laws of our country make a big distinction between killing in self defense and murder.

And concerning that God loves murderers as much as he loves non-murderers: while that may be true (who knows), God also allows us to experience the consequences of our actions. If someone sets out to murder someone, he took his fate into his hands, and should be expecting the possibility of being killed in the process of his murderous intentions.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 02-13-2007, 12:41 PM   #161
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Yes, not all killing of human beings is murder. For example, if someone were trying to kill you, and you killed that person first, it would be self-defense.
But to refer back to Sean's example, not all killing that occurs in combat situations fits that scenario. We all know what "collateral damage" is, and part of the reason that euphemism exists is because we recognize the ethical difficulty in accounting for civilian deaths resulting from actions which it was known in advance might have that result. Yet when it happens we don't automatically deem it murder or manslaughter, even though it's untruthful to say that the soldier(s) were "defending" themselves from civilians, or that they had no idea their actions would quite likely kill a few of them along with the "bad guys."

I'm not trying to suggest a battlefield/uterus analogy here, the point is that what constitutes murder isn't universally obvious; a murder is by definition an unlawful killing, yes, but in order to define what's unlawful you must first have agreed-upon legal definitions of 'person,' 'innocent,' and so forth, as well as agreed-upon definitions of what, if any, the mitigating factors might be ('crime of passion,' combat situation, etc.).
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 02-13-2007, 12:44 PM   #162
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

But to refer back to Sean's example, not all killing that occurs in combat situations fits that scenario. We all know what "collateral damage" is, and part of the reason that euphemism exists is because we recognize the ethical difficulty in accounting for civilian deaths resulting from actions which it was known in advance might have that result. Yet when it happens we don't automatically deem it murder or manslaughter, even though it's untruthful to say that the soldier(s) were "defending" themselves from civilians, or that they had no idea their actions would quite likely kill a few of them along with the "bad guys."
But remember, my definition of murder is the "intentional killing of an innocent human being". In the scenario you are discussing, there is no intentional killing of innocent human beings. The soldiers are not intending to kill the civilians.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 02-13-2007, 01:08 PM   #163
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
redhotswami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Waiting for this madness to end.
Posts: 5,846
Local Time: 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


But I'm talking specifically about people who believe abortion is murder, yet don't want it to be made illegal.

How can someone who believes it is murder think it's not the government's business? Why do they think that murder should be a personal choice?
i'm not 100% sure because i don't share the opinion of the people that you stated above, but i don't know if it is so much that "murder should be a personal choice" and perhaps it is more along the lines that what happens to one's body should be a personal choice.
__________________
redhotswami is offline  
Old 02-13-2007, 01:50 PM   #164
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,645
Local Time: 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
Do we consider micro organisms life? Even scientists who discovered life on mars (Even though not human) is still life. So a When a man and woman have sex or if a woman goes to a fertility clinic and is injected with sperm and the sperm and egg meet and start forming, it's life.
You're pretty much arguing the same thing 80's is arguing and the point of the petri dish scenario.

And it's been determined they are pretty much invaluable to us except in word alone. You or 80's wouldn't go back and save them, so what's your point?
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 02-13-2007, 01:54 PM   #165
Acrobat
 
BorderGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under A Blood Red Texas Sky
Posts: 418
Local Time: 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem


I dont want to argue; I just want to see it written:
Abortion is wrong, and must be wrong in one and all cases, if it is truly wrong. Aborting as a result of the crime of another is as wrong as aborting from carelessness of actions.


Come on guys, who wants to make FYM history and have the balls to say an abortion from a battered and raped girl is the same as an abortion from a suicidally depressed stupid girl who made a stupid but conscious choice. Come on, guys.
The end result is the same isn't it, regardless of the circumstance? Abortion kills. Death occurs for a fetus or a baby, however you see it.
Trauma endured from a crime or a careless action is eventually resolved one way or another.
You cannot help what people do to you, but you can help how you choose to respond. Solving violence with another violent act is never the answer.
Is it any wonder that everywhere you look life is cheap; trails of used people, fatherless children, estranged siblings, relationships, divorce,......pain.
Look around, we are reaping what we sow.
People are not disposable.
If you want peace, work for justice, for all.
Born or unborn life is not cheap.
Teach your heart to respond with love. Find family or friends who will let you grieve at the sight of the world. Someone who has been raped or abused will not feel better because of an abortion. Abortion does not take this trauma away, it creates another one.
A child should not pay for the actions or 'mistakes' of a father or mother. Innocence is what needs protecting in our *ucked up world......

And a *ucked up world it is too.
__________________

__________________
BorderGirl is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com