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Old 06-19-2006, 07:34 AM   #391
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


no... the play that wade took never should have happened because he jumped from one side of the half court line, caught the ball in mid air, and landed on the other side.

back court violation. should have been dallas' ball.

LemonMacPhisto is right, after a timeout and advancing the ball, you can now inbounds into the back court (I would assume you would be well aware of this), in fact it was a very heady play by Wade to get off his feet off the floor and catch the ball and land in the back court, thus avoiding the violation cause had he had a foot on the court in the front court when possessing the ball it would then have been a violation.

Quite a game.
Credit Nowitzki for stepping up with some big shots late after a tough shooting night, and Wade should be finals MVP even if the Mavs win games 6 and 7.
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Old 06-19-2006, 07:56 AM   #392
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Teams that play with the Hack-a-Shaq should not win the title.
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Old 06-19-2006, 09:13 AM   #393
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[B]LemonMacPhisto is right, after a timeout and advancing the ball, you can now inbounds into the back court (I would assume you would be well aware of this), in fact it was a very heady play by Wade to get off his feet off the floor and catch the ball and land in the back court, thus avoiding the violation cause had he had a foot on the court in the front court when possessing the ball it would then have been a violation.
B]
welcome to basketball 101 with professor headache

you're wrong, lemon's wrong, and the refs were wrong. it wasn't a very heady play. it's a back court violation. here is why.

yes, in the nba you can now go into the back court to get the ball on an inbounds, which is the same rule as in high school and college. that is not the issue.

what is the issue is that when a player is in the air, location of possession is determined by where your feet last touched the ground. so much in the same way where a player can't jump from out of bounds and catch the ball in mid air, he cannot jump from the front court, catch the ball, and land in the backcourt. wade's feet need to touch the ground in the backcourt before he catches the ball. if he catches it in mid air, posession is established as being in the front court... where his feet were last on the ground. if all three points... meaning both feet and the ball... return to the court in the back court, which they did, it is a back court violation.
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Old 06-19-2006, 09:13 AM   #394
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basketball 101 yes, posting 101 no

double post, my bad
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Old 06-19-2006, 09:24 AM   #395
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Teams that play with the Hack-a-Shaq should not win the title.
well, to be fair pat riley did it to ben wallace. he started the whole "team has the lead but do the hack a shaq anyway" thing. so now he's paying for it.

but i agree that it's getting out of hand. i wouldn't mind if the nba put in a rule that gave the ref the right to call an intentional foul throughout the game if someone purposely fouls someone away from the ball.
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Old 06-19-2006, 09:55 AM   #396
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well, to be fair pat riley did it to ben wallace. he started the whole "team has the lead but do the hack a shaq anyway" thing. so now he's paying for it.

but i agree that it's getting out of hand. i wouldn't mind if the nba put in a rule that gave the ref the right to call an intentional foul throughout the game if someone purposely fouls someone away from the ball.
What is the difference between an intentional and a flagrant foul? There seems to be a difference in the ruling but I do not know why... after all, the hack-a-Shaq only happens with the purpose of fouling the guy...

As such, I would agree with a rule that gives Shaq two free throws and possession.
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Old 06-19-2006, 10:11 AM   #397
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i don't know how the NBA defines it but the NCAA and high school define the difference sort of like this... an intentional foul is a play in foul in which there is no play on the ball, a flagrant foul is an intentional foul that puts the "foulee" at risk of bodily harm.

example... guy's on a fast break and a player behind him wraps his arms around his waist, not making a play on the ball but keeping the player from falling to the ground, not trying to injure, etc. etc.... intentional foul. same situation, player a pushes player b to the ground rather than wrapping him up, flagrant foul.

in college or high school (or in the nba under 2 minutes) what devin harris did to shaq would be considered an intentional foul. what jerry stackhouse did to shaq would still be considered a flagrant foul.



and while we're on rule symantics... i cracked open the 2005-06 NBA rule book and searched down the exact rule re: a player who is in the air.

Quote:
Rule 8, Section 1 - ...For location of a player in the air, his position is that from which he last touched the floor.
so... thus then... as per Rule 8, Section III, e./exception (blah blah blah)... the ball may be passed into the back court in the final two minutes or overtime. however, location of the player is established by where his feet last touched the ground. so once wade catches the ball, posession is established as being in the front court, which would make when he comes down in the back court a... ta da... back court violation.
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Old 06-19-2006, 10:16 AM   #398
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


what is the issue is that when a player is in the air, location of possession is determined by where your feet last touched the ground. so much in the same way where a player can't jump from out of bounds and catch the ball in mid air, he cannot jump from the front court, catch the ball, and land in the backcourt. wade's feet need to touch the ground in the backcourt before he catches the ball. if he catches it in mid air, posession is established as being in the front court... where his feet were last on the ground. if all three points... meaning both feet and the ball... return to the court in the back court, which they did, it is a back court violation.
Is it not different for a ball being brought in from out of bounds?
The ball is not yet in play until possessed by a player on the floor, which in this case is an airborne Wade who lands in the back court.
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Old 06-19-2006, 10:21 AM   #399
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Originally posted by Hewson
Is it not different for a ball being brought in from out of bounds?
The ball is not yet in play until possessed by a player on the floor, which in this case is an airborne Wade who lands in the back court.
see my last post location of an airborne player is established by where his feet left the floor.

needless to say, i'm used to looking up rules in these crappy little books. tis in my job description.
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Old 06-19-2006, 10:44 AM   #400
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I saw the post, but the ball has not yet been established in possession on the floor in this case, so I wonder if its a different scenario. Cause nobody argued it, and I haven't heard anyone (aside from you) in the media mention it.
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Old 06-19-2006, 10:50 AM   #401
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you're just looking in the wrong places...

Quote:
After Nowitzki's jumper with 9.1 seconds to go gave the Mavericks 100-99 lead, Wade took an inbounds pass wove and dribbled his way seemingly all over South Florida — the Mavericks thought he pushed off and committed a backcourt violation — before he fouled on a drive to the basket by Nowitzki.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060619/..._nba_finals_63

Quote:
Cuban was standing against a wall, shaking his head while gathering his thoughts before speaking to reporters when assistant coach Larry Riley alerted him to the missed backcourt violation.

"You can't be established in the frontcourt, then jump into the backcourt," Cuban said after watching a replay. "My understanding from the rule book is, if you are going to catch the ball in the backcourt, you have to be in the backcourt to catch it. You can't be established into the backcourt after you catch it or that's a backcourt violation."
http://www.nbc5i.com/sports/9390336/...s=dfw&psp=news


and as for the other question... trust me, location of an airborne player is established as where his feet last touched the floor. so when he touches the ball, he starts possession. just like the clock starts the second someone touches it, not the second someone touches the floor. once it's in his hands, possession begins.

that's the rule at every level of basketball, and that is the rule as explained in the NBA rule book, which, admittedly, is sometimes hard to understand.
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Old 06-19-2006, 11:51 AM   #402
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as for the actuall foul call it's self... well... it all depends on which way you want to look at it...

foul...


or no foul...



this is exactly why pictures can be deceiving... the first looks like an obvious foul, the second looks like no foul at all. reality is it was a touch call that probably would have been called in the first quarter but usually wouldn't be called in a game deciding play in overtime. it was a foul, but at that point in the game you would hope the ref would swallow the whistle.

that said, wade still had to hit the foul shots... which he did.
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Old 06-19-2006, 12:06 PM   #403
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
you're just looking in the wrong places...
Tis the story of my life.



So OOTS can gripe about the refs robbing his Mavs last night, so long as he changes his gripe from the "Phantom phoul" to the non backcourt call.
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Old 06-19-2006, 12:31 PM   #404
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ironicly enough the same ref who missed the back court call was also the ref who charged dallas with the time out in between free throws.

wooooo... spooky. get oliver stone on the horn
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Old 06-19-2006, 12:57 PM   #405
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i will say this... dirk is going to get himself fined heavily. the way the nba has gone so far this post-season, i'd be surprised but not shocked if he even earned himself a suspension for kicking the ball into the upper deck.

but as long as that doesn't happen, angry dirk is usually one hell of a player.
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