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Old 06-13-2007, 09:45 PM   #31
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Exactly.
I love when you agree with me...you should watch Babel again

On a side note, you officially have the best sig ever now
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:46 PM   #32
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AOD, your sig looks like a puppy uprising. Especially with the one the 3rd from the right.

And that EyeHandMonster Thing scared the shit out of me.
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:49 PM   #33
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Yeah, the one reason I wished there was far more fantasy in the movie is because the fantasy creation in the film were so amazing-looking and well-brought-to-life. It's a true breath of fresh air to see such elaborite and beautiful creatures created with classic make-up techniques.



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Old 06-13-2007, 09:51 PM   #34
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We'll just have to wait until Hellboy 2 I guess...
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Old 06-13-2007, 10:04 PM   #35
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AOD, your sig looks like a puppy uprising. Especially with the one the 3rd from the right.

And that EyeHandMonster Thing scared the shit out of me.
It's a Puprising!. Maybe that's what we'll call U2Man's return

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He reminds me of my grandfather at the dinner table after he had a stroke

Awesome special effects, though. You could tell a lot of thought went into them. They weren't over-the-top, just nuanced perfectly, with even simple things like the forest creatures/insects having a unique quality. How about root baby? He was pretty great, himself! Cute and disturbing, all in one.
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Old 06-13-2007, 10:45 PM   #36
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I don't know about changing the captain, however. He played the power-hungry, war-loving archetype perfectly...and maybe for good reason. I had the impression that he embodied the ruthlessness of crazed military men all throughout history...right up to present day global leaders. His increasing madness and hate represent a direct contrast to Ophelia's quest for magic and hope in the midst of chaos.


In some ways, I compared him to Ralph Fiennes' character, Amon Goeth, in Schindler's List. Here was a man so deplorable, with nothing redeeming in his life that you actually cheered when he died. You get the same reaction with El Capitan. The movie was a fairy tale. All fairy tales have villains with non-redeeming qualities so that you can see the clear distinction between good and evil. It's what makes Ofelia a stronger character and in turn, her innocence makes him a complete monster.

Ying and Yang.
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Old 06-13-2007, 10:55 PM   #37
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Now that you say it, he does remind me a lot of Goeth, especially in the scene where he beats the shit out of the rabbit hunter's son with the empty bottle.

I was wrong about what I said earlier. Him believing he's doing the right thing makes him the monster that he is.
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Old 06-13-2007, 10:57 PM   #38
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... tended to direct certain scenes too...obviously? If that makes sense. Sort of like "Look at this, and now you should feel this way about this situation," or that certain character's motivations were simply spelt out in some scenes, instead of suggested.
But that's how Fairy Tales are written. They leave no room for wondering who is good or bad, or what action is taking place, or the virtue (or lack thereof) of the action. The driving force behind fairy tales is that the actions of the hero isalways good, virtuous and clear. The beauty of Pan's Labyrinth is that even though it is clearly for adults, it is still written as if it is for children. You know who is who and what is what. I noticed I expected the frog and the Pale Man to be good guys at first, but clearly I was incorrect. The Pale Man ate the goddamn fairies for Christ's sake! How badass was that?

Fairy Tales are fucking scary, man. Go back and read some. For us not so much cause we get picture books and Disney cartoons, but the actual texts are freaky. I think Pan's Labyrinth is just a Fairy Tale told as it's written. And most are given historical backdrops as well. The fantasy elements are what we remember most, but they generally aren't the majority of the story.
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Old 06-13-2007, 10:59 PM   #39
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Doesn't mean it couldn't have been a better film.
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Old 06-13-2007, 11:02 PM   #40
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allrighty then. you're looking at it as a film, I'm looking at it as a story.
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Old 06-13-2007, 11:06 PM   #41
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Him believing he's doing the right thing makes him the monster that he is.

You get it! There's a fine line between a sinner and a monster. A sinner can kill a man and be remorseful about it later. A monster believes that person never had a right to live in the first place. This is absolutely what makes "a villain that you love to hate."
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Old 06-13-2007, 11:12 PM   #42
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I wish I could put Darth Vader in that category, but Episodes I-III and VI killed that for me.
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Old 06-13-2007, 11:19 PM   #43
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Well what do you expect, Mother? I'm half machine!

I don't remember much of part VI, but I'm curious as to why you'd think Darth was ever remorseful about what he did. He killed the padawans! I guess you kinda grow up with Anakin, and you begin to like the character for who he is. And then there's a 180 thanks to some other Sith Lord (lol, can you tell how well I know these movies?). It can get confusing. I think in this situation you can classify Anakin as the sinner role and Darth as the monster role. Anakin was good until he chose to go bad, in doing so, he became a monster.

I'm sure if they had shown you El Capitan's/Amon Goeth's younger days you would have had some sympathy with him. Here's a young lad swept up in politics, fighting for a better country and somewhere along the way he picks up power and becomes evil.
It's the same story told a million times over.
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Old 06-13-2007, 11:26 PM   #44
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Look at the groundwork Episodes IV and V and even the beginning of VI laid out:

Vader "killed" Anakin
"He's more machine now than man - twisted and evil"
"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny"

The end battle between Luke and Vader betrays everything that has been set up about Vader in the other movies, and even Luke. Luke needs to kill Vader not only because he's going to kill him, but because it's his final step to finally growing up and maturing. Vader's last second turn against The Emperor would've been great if they had set up that Anakin can in fact be redeemed.

Using that logic, that makes the prequel trilogy completely unnecessary for the same reasons Pla mentioned about Goeth and the Captain.

Feel free to disagree with me about this, but I truly feel that Vader had to die as a villain, albeit tragic, but still a villain.
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Old 06-13-2007, 11:28 PM   #45
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Yeah, your villain seems to lose credibility when you make them human. I think that's why I like the Harry Potter books so much. Voldemort was an asshole from the start.
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