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Old 06-19-2013, 01:34 PM   #106
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I am a bit taken aback by the shear outrage and shock here. Did people really think that this type of surveillance doesn't go on? Were they asleep during the Cold War or oblivious to 9/11 and the way that governments globally reacted in the aftermath of those events?

Maybe it's because I was born in a country that was communist at the time and we all (correctly) assumed that we were being spied on 24/7, that this doesn't seem at all surprising to me. It's like getting confirmation of what anyone with an iota of common sense should have known.

None of that makes it an acceptable situation, mind you.
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Old 06-19-2013, 03:50 PM   #107
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acceptable, that is not so much the question for me,

is it tolerable? in this less than perfect world, yes.
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Old 06-19-2013, 05:05 PM   #108
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there are no easy answers here. none. anyone who thinks this is simple either way is dead wrong.

i would cautiously say that i am willing to give up a modicum of my privacy in order to live in a more secure world. these fuckers want to go nuclear, and living in a city that's a prime target, i'd rather overzealousness on the side of caution. and given what i know about modern detective work performed by local police departments on even simple crimes, none of this surprises me in the least. doesn't everyone know that their cell phone is basically a GPS device? that you can log in to cameras filming on public streets? that, for example, Memphis could literally watch me walk from my office to the metro via public cameras?

there's of course tremendous potential for abuse, but at the same time, we are governed by laws, not by hand-rubbing, moustache-twisting villans. paranoia makes for a thrilling movie, but reality is so much more mundane than that.
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:18 PM   #109
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I find the uproar about this pretty absurd. NOT THAT I'M EXCUSING IT, I just find it absurd.

First, people seem to really misunderstand what's going on here. SO FAR there is no evidence of true wiretapping or illegal bugging, etc. which I've heard some people say, so let's just get that clear.

Secondly, why the hell are any of you surprised?

Third, have you ever noticed that the advertisements or your Google searches seem to cater to your search patterns and internet habits? Why is it you weren't worried about corporations knowing everything about you, but now is where you draw the line?

Fourth, we invited this upon ourselves! I registered my first email account back in 1997, since then I can't tell you how many, I couldn't begin to tell you how many websites I've put my personal information in to make a purchase or register something, and then we start carrying smartphones that know exactly where we are at all times.


Terrorist and other evil have been using the same exact technology that we are, now some may think they know ways around this or that but the truth is, nothing over the internet is safe. NOTHING! My encryption probably can't be hacked by 90% of hackers out there, and I work for an IT company, but I guarantee you the government can, and if they can't today they will tomorrow. So hiphop don't kid yourself.

So, at the end of the day, what are you able to tolerate?

My feeling is that society goes through cycles, and these cycles are a way of naturally regulating ourselves. I just saw an article recently about how the next generation of voters will have a much bigger libertarian lean than the previous, I think it's due to having seen where intervening has gotten us, more relaxed views on drugs, etc. I think the same thing will happen with how much we are wired in and connected, technology will grow and it will always be a part of society, but I do think we'll go through cycles where there will be more and more that live "live off the grid" or try and find ways to separate "the grid".
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:01 PM   #110
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Is this enough for impeachment?

Just thought it was interesting to read through some of that old thread.
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Old 06-20-2013, 05:17 AM   #111
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Irvine511 is ready to give up a modicum of privacy because he lives in Washington.

BVS says we shouldn´t complain because we invited this ourselves by opening email accounts.

Deep thinks its tolerable because the world ain´t perfect.

Pearl says people who expose a government spying on its own citizens, cause more problems. If it had stayed top secret, no problem.
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:11 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiphop View Post
Irvine511 is ready to give up a modicum of privacy because he lives in Washington.

BVS says we shouldn´t complain because we invited this ourselves by opening email accounts.

Deep thinks its tolerable because the world ain´t perfect.

Pearl says people who expose a government spying on its own citizens, cause more problems. If it had stayed top secret, no problem.
And you said Obama's race had something to do with this and terrorists didn't use technology... oh and a BUNCH of other nonsense.

Do I have the game right?
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Old 06-20-2013, 09:22 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiphop View Post
Irvine511 is ready to give up a modicum of privacy because he lives in Washington.

BVS says we shouldn´t complain because we invited this ourselves by opening email accounts.

Deep thinks its tolerable because the world ain´t perfect.

Pearl says people who expose a government spying on its own citizens, cause more problems. If it had stayed top secret, no problem.
So?
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Old 06-20-2013, 04:50 PM   #114
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Here's the problem as I see it.

My understanding is that the Patriot Act focused solely on suspects. The NSA's recent actions are clearly much more far-reaching than that. When everyone's cell records are being tapped -- when foreign nationals' emails etc are being watched -- when companies are being pressured by the government to give up their information -- when private organizations are forced to disclose information on their donors for the use of other organizations -- we have a problem.

Further, likening Constitutionally-protected liberties designed to protect us from government overreach to marketing choices that we make when we opt-in to email programs is a complete straw man. When we sign up Gmail, Facebook, etc., we opt in to their marketing. If we don't want to be tracked, we don't need to use those services. The government, by contrast, has given us no choice in the matter, and has further encroached on our Constitutionally-protected right to privacy. These are serious actions. We justify it now in the name of security, but what happens when/if those methods are used for nefarious ends?
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Old 06-20-2013, 05:40 PM   #115
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That's one of the fundamental questions. I don't have an answer.

While there is much more accountability when it comes to government than with big business, generally speaking, you can't be audited or thrown into jail by big business.
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:50 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
Here's the problem as I see it.

My understanding is that the Patriot Act focused solely on suspects. The NSA's recent actions are clearly much more far-reaching than that. When everyone's cell records are being tapped -- when foreign nationals' emails etc are being watched -- when companies are being pressured by the government to give up their information -- when private organizations are forced to disclose information on their donors for the use of other organizations -- we have a problem.
Let's be careful using the term "tapped", there's no evidence of you or I being "tapped" yet. I'll be honest I haven't seen the bit about foreign nationals emails being watched, this is all foreign nationals?

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Further, likening Constitutionally-protected liberties designed to protect us from government overreach to marketing choices that we make when we opt-in to email programs is a complete straw man. When we sign up Gmail, Facebook, etc., we opt in to their marketing. If we don't want to be tracked, we don't need to use those services. The government, by contrast, has given us no choice in the matter, and has further encroached on our Constitutionally-protected right to privacy. These are serious actions. We justify it now in the name of security, but what happens when/if those methods are used for nefarious ends?
That's missing my point. My point was why is it that you have no problem giving your information to MSN they turn around and sell and then they turn around and sell it to someone else, but for some reason the government who had a part in creating my data is suddenly scary. All I said is that it just seems odd.
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Old 06-20-2013, 10:02 PM   #117
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L My point was why is it that you have no problem giving your information to MSN they turn around and sell and then they turn around and sell it to someone else, but for some reason the government who had a part in creating my data is suddenly scary. All I said is that it just seems odd.
Why is it odd? Is it not simply a matter of consent or lack thereof?
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:59 PM   #118
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Why is it odd? Is it not simply a matter of consent or lack thereof?
No I understand the consent issue, although I would argue most people don't know what they're consenting to or not. But then what if MSN sold my info to corporation x and then corporation x sells or gives it to the government?

I guess I find it odd that people argue privacy, but the same exact data can be circulating through dozens or corporations as we speak and somehow that isn't an issue of privacy for them just because they clicked the "I agree" tab for the first seller.
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Old 06-23-2013, 09:25 PM   #119
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So?
You never saw an abstract?

It´s absurd that it does not disturb you when a priviledged group of people can snoop on you and everybody else at will, plus you pay a tax to finance this group of people.

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And you said Obama's race had something to do with this and terrorists didn't use technology... oh and a BUNCH of other nonsense.

Do I have the game right?
No, I did not say Obama´s race "has to do with it".

Can you generalize a little more?

I said African Americans must be disappointed because when Obama was elected, it seemed like a big achievement for many African Americans. I have read countless messages in the Obama "yes we can" craze, and you can not deny that many African Americans were very proud that Obama is the first African American President in office. Some people who voted him expected him to be a good President because he is African American. They voted for change. I pointed out these voters might be disappointed because it is clear to see who he works for - the people who financed his campaign. Of course, also everyone else may be disappointed or not. Obama has not kept one single promise. He has not delivered to the American people.

Am I wasting my time replying to to someone who does´t want to discuss but take a cheap shot?

I guess so. Or what game were you referring to?

Bye, FYM! Keep throwing shit to see what sticks. I know I won´t be missed
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Old 06-23-2013, 09:35 PM   #120
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It's amazing how the Euro Left and the American Right have so much in common.
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