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Old 11-20-2008, 11:46 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
You need to convince the dumb guys that it's in their interest to run their own lives.
You mean the guys that don't believe in science and think god should be taught in a science class, or the ones that think if gays marry society will be ruined, or those that think birth control is evil... are these the dumb ones you are talking about? You're right, they should run their own lives.

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Palin, Pawlenty, Jindal. I'm sure I'm leaving out some but yes. Palin is not as dumb as you guys think, she just can't handle "gotcha" media but she's an actual conservative and knows that market capitalism is about the individual and that governments can't magically wave a wand of prosperity.
This is probably one of the scariest posts in this thread, and there have been some scary posts.

Palin not as dumb as we think? Did you even pay attention?

Palin knows nothing about the market, where did you get that crap?
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Old 11-20-2008, 11:48 PM   #137
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Because 75% didn't?

<>
Wow, there are conservatives that can handle math...

Now I'm convinced, we're the dumb ones.
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:11 AM   #138
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Yeah well I don't think conservatives should be trying to make Democrats happy because there will be many more Democrat victories to come. Bush was not that right wing as people make it. He increased the size of government more than anything Clinton did. You didn't notice government getting in the way yet but that's because the taxes haven't been raised to pay for the spending yet. What percentage of Americans actually pay tax nowadays?
No idea. i know i do. Do you ?

I've live din the US over 20 years, I've NEVER seen government get "in the way".

I htink this i sjust a republican/coservative/rush limbaugh cliche (just like calling Obama a socialist) , and yet no one can actually explain what it means (just like no republican i met who called Obama a socialist coul dactually point to any of his policies as being socialist in nature)
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:32 AM   #139
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but she's an actual conservative and knows that market capitalism is about the individual and that governments can't magically wave a wand of prosperity.
Really now, is she? I'm guessing you're talking about fiscal conservatism, since that seems to be what you're all about. Have you read about the irresponsible and dumb fiscal things she did as Mayor of Wasilla?

And even if she was a fiscal conservative with knowledge of markets (she isn't), do you fiscals really want her type running your prospective government? You know, the kind who thinks a dinosaur is a Jesus horse, and has no problem dictating her brand of morality to the country. Would you really be happy with that? I'd think you'd want the party to move away from that crap, and at least become credible again, a party that even if I don't agree with them, at least I won't be laughing at them, one that will attract moderates.

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At least she talking about people leaving within their means. That's the one of the pillars to recovery that's ultra boring and doesn't make it to talking points much.
See, this is where the hypocrisy of the Republican party comes in. She wants people to live within their means, and yet this huge shopping spree was embarked upon on her behalf, and she did wear the clothes. Her family, too. Do you honestly think that if that whole mess hadn't been made public, that she wouldn't have kept them? Is that living within her means? God.
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:54 AM   #140
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Beware of memes, they might make you look foolish
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Sarah Palin is Not a Literal Creationist

Sarah Palin has apparently stated that she considers herself a creationist in the sense that she thinks God is behind all evolution. However, Sarah Palin is not a literal Creationist in the sense that she believes the world was created in 7 literal days and is only a few thousand years old. She is flexible with dating in the Bible and according to her church does not believe that Dinosaurs literally roamed Earth with man. Some creationists believe that before man was created, God created the world in 7 days where each 'Day' is an extended period of time.

Sarah Palin was born into a Catholic family. Her family later attended a Pentacostal Christian church. She now considers her home church to be the Wasilla Bible Church, which is an independent church not associated with any major Christian denomination.
This exact line of inquiry stems from various internet sources. Three of the most prominent are a video interview with Matt Damon, an internet blog, and an article in the LA Times.
1. Internet Blog
These allegations appear to stem from a blog post that included "fake Governor Sarah Palin quotes" made up by a blogger at unbearablebobness.typepad.com. He states that his blog post was an attempt to satirize Gov. Palin's beliefs, and does not reflect those beliefs in any way.
The direct quote from unbearablebobness.typepad.com is as follows:
"God made dinosaurs 4,000 years ago as ultimately flawed creatures, lizards of Satan really, so when they died and became petroleum products we, made in his perfect image, could use them in our pickup trucks, snow machines and fishing boats. Now, as to the ANWR, Todd and I often enjoying caribou hunting and one year we shot up a herd big time, I mean I personally slaughtered around 40 of them with my new, at the time, custom Austrian hunting rifle. And guess what? That caribou herd is still around and even bigger than ever. Caribou herds actually need culling, be it by rifles or wolves, or Exxon-Mobil oil rigs, they do just great!"
The post concludes with the following disclaimer:
"Disclaimer: She didn't actually say these things - I made them up. But thanks for all the visits."
It thus appears that, to a large extent, people have attributed this belief to Gov. Palin after believing that she actually made what many believe to be 'fictional' statements.
2. Matt Damon
Damon said in an interview that he wanted to know if Sarah Palin thinks dinosaurs were "here 4000 years ago." The interview can be found on YouTube.
Damon does not provide any basis for his desire to ask Palin about her beliefs. Accordingly, it is unclear whether Damon's assertion stems from a mistaken belief that Palin actually made the statements attributed to her on the aforementioned internet blog.
3. The LA Times
An LA Times article has cited an anonymous source as stating that, shortly after being elected mayor of Wasilla, Alaska in 1996, Sarah Palin stated that she believed humans and dinosaurs existed at the same time. Some have questioned the truth of those allegations because the person who told that story operates a political blog primarily directed toward opposing Palin's candidacy, the source never published his story prior to Palin's nomination for Vice President, there were apparently no other witnesses to the statement, and no one else has come forward as stating that they have heard Palin endorse similar beliefs. (See Related Links for the LA Times article.) Apparently, the article has not gained wide circulation in other newspapers partly because of questions related the truth of the source's allegations.
According to the article:
"Soon after Sarah Palin was elected mayor of the foothill town of Wasilla, Alaska, she startled a local music teacher by insisting in casual conversation that men and dinosaurs coexisted on an Earth created 6,000 years ago -- about 65 million years after scientists say most dinosaurs became extinct -- the teacher said.
"When he asked her about prehistoric fossils and tracks dating back millions of years, Palin said "she had seen pictures of human footprints inside the tracks," recalled Munger, who teaches music at the University of Alaska in Anchorage and has regularly criticized Palin in recent years on his liberal political blog, called Progressive Alaska."
Palin treads carefully between fundamentalist beliefs and public policy - Los Angeles Times
4. Did Not Attempt to Teach Creationism in Schools
Palin has NOT called for creationism to be taught in schools along side evolution (see FactCheck.org article on "Sliming Palin"). She has said that students should be allowed to "debate both sides" of the evolution/creationism debate comes up in class, but has also said that creationism should not be part of the curriculum. She has not pushed a bill to teach creationism in Alaska during her tenure as Governor of Alaska.
FactCheck.org: Sliming Palin
WikiAnswers - Does Sarah Palin believe that dinosaurs were alive 4000 years ago
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Old 11-21-2008, 01:12 AM   #141
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I've also read a statement made by a clergyman who knows her well that says otherwise. This blog has been credible to the extreme in the past. I see no reason not to believe it over an "official statement" at this point. I think this is apt to be far more honest.

Palin’s Revelations. Repent! The End is Near. � Mudflats


Palin’s Revelations. Repent! The End is Near.
15 09 2008

If you’re wondering why I wasn’t compulsively posting yesterday, it’s because I got a wonderful invitation to attend a dinner for some of Alaska’s greatest bloggers, and other members of the community. Also invited were a freelance writer who’s doing a piece for The Nation, and a film crew from the UK, working on the Sarah Palin story. So, off I went on a beautiful drive to the Mat-Su Valley, through the golden fall foliage that has suddenly emerged in the last two weeks while I haven’t been looking.

It was great fun to talk with this fascinating group of individuals over some of the best fresh local foods I’ve had in a long time. For someone who has been glued to the screen, and eating cereal because it’s easy, this was a lovely treat - fresh pesto potato salad, beets & goat cheese, copper river red salmon, and communicating without using a keyboard. What a novelty!

In addition to bloggers and media, were other dinner guests I didn’t expect, a local baptist minister, the Rev. Howard Bess, and his wife Darlene. Bess is responsible for writing one of the books that Sarah Palin wanted banned from the Wasilla Public Library while she was mayor. The title of the book? Pastor, I am Gay. The book is so bold as to suggest that gay people are not sinners, nor are they diseased. Well, they don’t like talk like that in the Valley. After the book was written, Rev. Bess was targeted by conservative churches, his book was rejected or pulled off the shelves by bookstores, his long-running column in the local newspaper was terminated, and mayor Palin tried to get the book yanked from the shelves of the public library.

Palin now denies that she wanted to censor library books, but Bess insists that his book was on a “hit list” targeted by Palin. “I’m as certain of that as I am that I’m sitting here. This is a small town, we all know each other. People in city government have confirmed to me what Sarah was trying to do.”

Bess was able to tell his compelling story to the film crew for use in their upcoming project. They also spoke with local bloggers including yours truly. They wouldn’t let me put a bag over my head, so after some desperate negotiating, we settled for a shot from behind, silhouetted by the backlighting of a window, and voice distortion. It made me laugh. Mudflats’ Deepthroat Moment!

Bess was not the only man in the room who has had firsthand knowledge of how Palin’s evangelical views color her world view and therefore, potentially, her policy-making decisions. Phil Munger, our host and author of the Progressive Alaska blog is also a noted local musician and has had many dealings with Sarah Palin in the past.

[He] says that Palin also helped push the evangelical drive to take over the Mat-Su Borough school board. “She wanted to get people who believed in creationism on the board,” said Munger, a music composer and teacher. “I bumped into her once after my band played at a graduation ceremony at the Assembly of God. I said, ‘Sarah, how can you believe in creationism — your father’s a science teacher.’ And she said, ‘We don’t have to agree on everything.’

“I pushed her on the earth’s creation, whether it was really less than 7,000 years old and whether dinosaurs and humans walked the earth at the same time. And she said yes, she’d seen images somewhere of dinosaur fossils with human footprints in them.”

Munger also asked Palin if she truly believed in the End of Days, the doomsday scenario when the Messiah will return. “She looked in my eyes and said, ‘Yes, I think I will see Jesus come back to earth in my lifetime.’”


As the days go by, more and more brave and principled people are standing up and speaking out. Every time someone does, it involves some measure of courage. Alaska is a small town, and opinions that go against the powers that be are not always welcomed. Everyone in that room last night recognized that suddenly, speaking out about Sarah Palin has become an act of sobering and great importance.

David Talbot of Salon.com was supposed to have attended the dinner last night, but was unable to make it. His article that came out today is mandatory reading, and the source of the quotes above. The article goes on further to discuss Sarah Palin’s personal involvement in heated anti-abortion protests that physically disrupted the practice of a local physician.





eta - okay, so I just reread it, first time I've read it since it was published, and it wasn't exactly the Reverend who made those claims (although he was in attendance), it was a local teacher. I see that was covered in one of your points. According to mine, the man related the story again at a local dinner party in front of a lot of people. The point still stands.
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:02 AM   #142
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There is so much to criticise her for, why leap on this? It is just like the myth about George W. Bush and the plastic turkey.
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:08 AM   #143
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There is so much to criticise her for, why leap on this? It is just like the myth about George W. Bush and the plastic turkey.
I agree that this isn't the biggest thing. I was merely pointing out to a fiscal conservative why it's probably not in the Republican Party's best interest to look to Sarah Palin and her ilk, the religious right, as the future of the party. Then you posted that the reports of her evangelism are overblown, and I posted my source to show that I don't believe it is overblown. That's all.
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:31 AM   #144
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Obama

Barack Obama blows goats. I have proof!
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:59 AM   #145
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Palin is not as dumb as you guys think, she just can't handle "gotcha" media
Palin is actually very intelligent, she just can't show that when asked those pesky journalist questions.

Seriously, the questions weren't tough on an intellectual level. Yet, her answers were incoherent and showed an incredible lack of knowledge.

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Bush was not that right wing as people make it. He increased the size of government more than anything Clinton did.
That's actually right and has been argued many times by the left here in the forum, while the right deemed these policies fundamentally important to the nation.
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Old 11-21-2008, 06:05 AM   #146
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and just for fun, an interview with the guy who runs the "How Obama got elected" website
FiveThirtyEight.com: Politics Done Right: An Interview with John Ziegler on the Zogby "Push Poll"
1) It's hilarious that he uses Fox News words like "pinhead" and gets angry right away from answering simple, straightforward questions...because he assumes there's a bias...

2) And I tie him into Fox because he actually lets slip that he recently made an appearance on there. Color me surprised.

3) But of course, I haven't yet brought into this the polls that show Fox News viewers to be the least informed of all when it comes to various issues....but I guess that's ok as long as the network services the slant you agree with. That makes them not part of the "liberal media that's un-informing the public"...whatever.

Honestly, how did the media give this election to Obama? McCain had a network slanted in his favor the entire time (the most watched cable news outlet, mind you). What more could the media ask about Obama? Republicans keep crying foul play simply because the name "William Ayers" wasn't mentioned every single day in a bold-faced headline on the front page of every American newspaper. Give it up. There were no stories that could've undermined Obama that the media didn't report. If there was, it would've been there because the newspapers (and other media) want important stories that make them money. There was no ongoing story with William Ayers or Jeremiah Wright or whatever else. The media didn't help Barack Obama win this election, quit whining. For god's sake, the Democrats were winning in landslides over McCain and the other Republicans throughout the year in polls except for a period where Johnny was the only one of the two spending money on television advertising since Obama was waiting him out and preparing for a deluge. The Republicans were destined to lose because of the issues...they played the biggest part in the financial crisis, getting us into Iraq, and supported all of the un-constitutional Bush bills that took away our freedoms on a consistent basis. They were willing enablers with what is already being seen by historians as the worst presidency in our nation's history. You expected any person from the same party to have a reasonable chance at securing the nation's highest office?

Honestly, you people said nothing about the media loving Gore or Kerry...just can't handle a loss or fathom that the American public doesn't believe in the same things as you.

And I'm a Nader voter by the way who thinks Mr. Obama has already caved on issues such as Palestine or Wall Street and will continue to disappoint while he's in office (but anything's better than what we just suffered through)...I can objectively say that I didn't read anything in hundreds of online articles or from watching CNN that had constant, continual gushing over Mr. Obama. It just didn't exist. The only way I can see someone in the right being justified in their argument is if they feel that the media reported on more mis-cues from the McCain campaign but that's kind of their own fault for letting that stuff happen...just because Obama doesn't make any gaffes doesn't mean every news outlet should've kept bringing back up the non-story of William Ayers just to be "fair"...your candidate was out-of-touch and so is your party. Have fun watching the American demographic map continue to skew less white & less fundamentalist, bye bye elephant.

Now to keep watch on the Democrats when they start accepting nearly all of the corporate contributions.
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:38 PM   #147
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Really now, is she? I'm guessing you're talking about fiscal conservatism, since that seems to be what you're all about. Have you read about the irresponsible and dumb fiscal things she did as Mayor of Wasilla?

And even if she was a fiscal conservative with knowledge of markets (she isn't), do you fiscals really want her type running your prospective government? You know, the kind who thinks a dinosaur is a Jesus horse, and has no problem dictating her brand of morality to the country. Would you really be happy with that? I'd think you'd want the party to move away from that crap, and at least become credible again, a party that even if I don't agree with them, at least I won't be laughing at them, one that will attract moderates.
Moderates are the problem. They cave under pressure. Bush and McCain are moderates and they didn't get any credit from either side. BTW Palin's religion is personal. She isn't going to eliminate science. The way the left looks at global warming and faith in government bureacracy could easily be an "opiate for the masses" as anything any Christian believes.

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See, this is where the hypocrisy of the Republican party comes in. She wants people to live within their means, and yet this huge shopping spree was embarked upon on her behalf, and she did wear the clothes. Her family, too. Do you honestly think that if that whole mess hadn't been made public, that she wouldn't have kept them? Is that living within her means? God.
I'm not going to comment on the clothes thing because there are competing stories and I don't know what the truth of the matter is. Certainly she lives within her means easily because she's rich and her husband is a business owner.

There is hypocrisy in the Republican party. Just look at the corruption Ted Stevens and Foley. Or Gingrich and his extramarital affair. Hypocrisy has to do with having a code of behaviour to follow and giving into impulses that pushes you away from that behaviour. It's not a surprise that Catholics look at Christianity as a narrow path because it's easy to fall off the wagon being the human beings we are. This doesn't nulify the code of conduct but I just don't expect all people will get there. BTW Palin has a good record in Alaska and I'm sure she will continue it. She probably didn't start out all that conservative in the first place but she was able to take on her own party and show strengh where many others did not. Democrats don't have that discipline at all. If democrats in congress see imperfections in Palin they are obviously not looking at themselves and are not trying to compete with conservatives in fiscal responsibility. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I think there are better communicators than Palin and she should just focus on congress. What matters in the end is the actual work. I haven't seen any skeletons in Jindal's closet yet.
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:43 PM   #148
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You mean the guys that don't believe in science and think god should be taught in a science class, or the ones that think if gays marry society will be ruined, or those that think birth control is evil... are these the dumb ones you are talking about? You're right, they should run their own lives.



This is probably one of the scariest posts in this thread, and there have been some scary posts.

Palin not as dumb as we think? Did you even pay attention?

Palin knows nothing about the market, where did you get that crap?
By actually listening to what she says instead of just looking for something to trash in her manner of speak. Her speeches made more sense than Obamas. I could easily call Obamanomics scary too. Anyone who likes Krugman and FDR is scary to right wingers.
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Old 11-21-2008, 01:27 PM   #149
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By actually listening to what she says instead of just looking for something to trash in her manner of speak.
What are you talking about? Go back and listen to the interview that was almost copied verbatim by SNL. She didn't even answer the question, it was just a barage of catch phrases, it was obvious she had no clue what she was talking about... I'm not attacking the manner in which she speaks I'm not even attacking her stances(because I was never sure what they were), I'm talking about content.

I'm saying this from a completely objective standpoint now, if you subsituted her catch phrases with catch phrases that were more in line with my thinking I would still think she's a clueless woman. And I would be completely embarassed that she was the one everyone in my party was praising.
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Old 11-21-2008, 01:37 PM   #150
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Bush was not that right wing as people make it. He increased the size of government more than anything Clinton did.
Increasing the size of government doesn't instantly transform a politician from one side of the aisle to the other. It's where the size increases come - which segments of government. You can beef up the defense and security portion and still be perfectly right wing.

Conservatives like to pretend they're for smaller government, but they're only for reducing the parts they don't like while still growing the parts they do. "Small government" is just a buzzphrase.
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