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Old 09-24-2010, 03:29 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
This is false. You're not very in tune with this subject. The articles even address that it doesn't cover all Muslims.
From the BBC:

"Sharia law is Islam's legal system. It is derived from both the Koran, as the word of God, the example of the life of the prophet Muhammad, and fatwas - the rulings of Islamic scholars."

From the CFR:

"Sharia guides all aspects of Muslim life including daily routines, familial and religious obligations, and financial dealings. It is derived primarily from the Quran and the Sunna--the sayings, practices, and teachings of the Prophet Mohammed. "

Which of us is "in tune" again?

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How are the UK courts having to enforce their rulings? You just pointed out that a couple can be divorced under UK law but not so under Sharia law. You're contradicting yourself left and right.
No, I'm not. In matters of family, finance, marriage, and divorce, even in the face of British law, sharia law takes precedence. This is rooted in the underlying philosophy of sharia law, which according to orthodox Islamic teaching is the only legitimate law in the world, with universal jurisdiction over Muslims and non-Muslims alike. As an example of the primacy of sharia, according to the CFR, "in Pakistan, Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, among others, it is also forbidden to enact legislation that is antithetical to Islam."

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These tribunals DO NOT cover all Muslims, only those Mosques that have them. Therefore in a way it's by choice. These laws ARE NOT changing or being incorporated into the actual law of the land.
The fact that sharia law trumps British law when it comes to various matters contradicts you here. Some notable examples from another Daily Mail article:

Islamic sharia courts in Britain are now 'legally binding' | Mail Online

Quote:
Cases handled by the courts so far include Muslim divorce and inheritance to nuisance neighbours, he said.

But as well as civil disputes they have also handled six cases of domestic violence.

In all six cases, he said, sharia judges ordered husbands to take anger management classes and mentoring from community elders, but issued no further punishment.

All the women subsequently withdrew their complaints to the police, who halted investigations.
Under normal British law those six cases could have been prosecuted as criminal, rather than “family” cases. But prosecuting the cases under sharia meant that British law had no jurisdiction.

Additionally, whether or not someone to chooses to follow a religion whose laws are at odds with the law of the land, does not mean that those laws no longer apply to that individual.
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Old 09-24-2010, 03:37 PM   #332
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What you're describing goes on in the states, but maybe to a lesser degree. Just like your example of divorce, the Catholic church has certain "laws" that don't recognize the law of the land.
Yes, which contributed to the cone of silence that allowed priests to molest thousands of children while investigators and prosecutors were kept at bay.

Great idea, that.
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Old 09-24-2010, 04:28 PM   #333
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Yes, which contributed to the cone of silence that allowed priests to molest thousands of children while investigators and prosecutors were kept at bay.

Great idea, that.
I wasn't claiming it was a great idea.
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Old 09-24-2010, 04:45 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
From the BBC:

"Sharia law is Islam's legal system. It is derived from both the Koran, as the word of God, the example of the life of the prophet Muhammad, and fatwas - the rulings of Islamic scholars."

From the CFR:

"Sharia guides all aspects of Muslim life including daily routines, familial and religious obligations, and financial dealings. It is derived primarily from the Quran and the Sunna--the sayings, practices, and teachings of the Prophet Mohammed. "

Which of us is "in tune" again?
Sharia law is interpreted and implemented in very different ways, just like there are several different interpretations and implementations amongst Christian religions.

How many Catholics in the US adhere to no contraception?

So I ask again, how many Muslims have to answer to these tribunals?

"some Muslims" was the phrase used at least twice in these articles.




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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
No, I'm not. In matters of family, finance, marriage, and divorce, even in the face of British law, sharia law takes precedence. This is rooted in the underlying philosophy of sharia law, which according to orthodox Islamic teaching is the only legitimate law in the world, with universal jurisdiction over Muslims and non-Muslims alike. As an example of the primacy of sharia, according to the CFR, "in Pakistan, Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, among others, it is also forbidden to enact legislation that is antithetical to Islam."



The fact that sharia law trumps British law when it comes to various matters contradicts you here. Some notable examples from another Daily Mail article:

Islamic sharia courts in Britain are now 'legally binding' | Mail Online

From this article:

Quote:
Critics fear Britain's Islamic hard-liners will now try to make sharia law the dominant legal system in Muslim neighbourhoods, and warn that women often receive less favourable treatment at the hands of the traditional Islamic courts.
Wait, I thought it already was?! How can this be? You said ALL Muslims are ruled under these tribunals.

Quote:
Sharia courts have operated unofficially for years among Britain's Muslim communities but until now their rulings could not be enforced, relying instead on parties agreeing voluntarily.
Wait again!!! You mean they aren't official?! But Nathan said...

They found a loop hole, and I hope they find a way to correct it.

But you're being driven by fear. You started this whole debate by saying that the UK as a whole is incorporating Sharia into the law of the land, and as we see that's not the truth.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:00 PM   #335
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Sharia law is interpreted and implemented in very different ways, just like there are several different interpretations and implementations amongst Christian religions.
No doubt, but all Muslims have to follow sharia law. Interpretations of the law may vary, but the law remains.

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Wait, I thought it already was?! How can this be? You said ALL Muslims are ruled under these tribunals.
No, I said that all Muslims are ruled under sharia law. The six tribunals currently set up in the UK merely administer it.

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Quote:
Sharia courts have operated unofficially for years among Britain's Muslim communities but until now their rulings could not be enforced, relying instead on parties agreeing voluntarily.
Wait again!!! You mean they aren't official?! But Nathan said...
As the Daily Mail article I posted pointed out, sharia law has been on the rise since 1982, when the first tribunals started operating outside of British law. In 2008, sharia law was officially recognized by the UK government. In 2009, it was ruled that British courts had to enforce sharia law. Prior to 2008, the laws weren't official according to the British government (though they were binding for Muslims according to the primacy of sharia); now they are. Kind of the definition of "encroachment".

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But you're being driven by fear.
No, I'm being driven by reality.

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You started this whole debate by saying that the UK as a whole is incorporating Sharia into the law of the land, and as we see that's not the truth.
Ask the six British citizens who were beaten by their husbands and told to return to them.

In 2008, the British government allowed for a separate legal system to enact its own laws within the country, over a specific segment of its citizens. That separate legal system has laws that at times conflict with established laws and legal principles, over which the British government decided they would not have jurisdiction, but would nonetheless have to enforce. Hence, many of its citizens are now ruled by Sharia, not British law -- hence, the British government has incorporated Sharia into the law of the land.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:21 PM   #336
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Let's see if we can pick out the more appropriate response:

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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
This is false. You're not very in tune with this subject.
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
This is false.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:35 PM   #337
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No doubt, but all Muslims have to follow sharia law. Interpretations of the law may vary, but the law remains.
But do they really? I'm not feigning ignorance here, but I can see what BVS is arguing. Technically all Catholics are compelled to follow the Church's teachings, but that certainly doesn't mean that all Catholics actually do. I have several Muslim friends who don't follow sharia law to the letter, and yet still consider themselves devout Muslims.

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Ask the six British citizens who were beaten by their husbands and told to return to them.

In 2008, the British government allowed for a separate legal system to enact its own laws within the country, over a specific segment of its citizens. That separate legal system has laws that at times conflict with established laws and legal principles, over which the British government decided they would not have jurisdiction, but would nonetheless have to enforce. Hence, many of its citizens are now ruled by Sharia, not British law -- hence, the British government has incorporated Sharia into the law of the land.
I think while this may be a very valid area of concern for British citizens, I don't quite think it translates over to the U.S. all that well. We have a decidedly different legal system, a decidedly different governmental setup, and a decidedly different culture. It's definitely not a one-to-one, 'it happened there so it will happen here if we don't act' translation. And definitely not enough of a threat, at least in my eyes, to start curtailing the religious freedoms of large segment of American citizens.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:50 PM   #338
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If you're a practicing Muslim, you're under Sharia. Regardless of the country's laws in which you live.
Erm, when you´re a Muslim you´re subject to the laws of the country you live in. In so-called democracies, this is called separation of church and state. Muslims all over Europe will have a serious problem if they follow Sharia law and stone someone to death. In good old Europe, nowadays it´s called murder (it´s good to remember it wasn´t always like that - just remember the inquisition and the burning of witches!).

By the way, didn´t we want to forbid Catholic nuns to wear headscarfs?
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:13 PM   #339
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Technically all Catholics are compelled to follow the Church's teachings, but that certainly doesn't mean that all Catholics actually do. I have several Muslim friends who don't follow sharia law to the letter, and yet still consider themselves devout Muslims.
Islam as practiced in the West has tended to resemble other Western religions in terms of its followers -- a split between the devout (church once a week), the committed (church once a month), and the casual (church once a year). The numbers I've seen are usually around a 40/30/30 split. Part of this is due to the West's secular nature. However, England -- like Europe -- has seen a dramatic influx of Muslim immigrants over the past 15-20 years, and these immigrants tend to be more devout in nature. Part of it may be the nature of the immigrant experience -- in a new environment, prior cultural norms (such as religious practices) take on a heightened role. Additionally, in a 2007 survey the Pew Research Center found that eighty-one percent of all Muslims in the UK considered themselves "first as Muslims, rather than citizens of their countries." (As opposed to only 47% in the U.S.) However, this tendency to use religion as a primary means of self-identification is significant. It explains the rise of sharia law in the UK, but it also complicates matters when it comes to legal issues.

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I think while this may be a very valid area of concern for British citizens, I don't quite think it translates over to the U.S. all that well. We have a decidedly different legal system, a decidedly different governmental setup, and a decidedly different culture. It's definitely not a one-to-one, 'it happened there so it will happen here if we don't act' translation.
While I don't disagree that the UK and the US are very different from one another, when such encroachment takes place in the UK, it bears vigilance. Turkey, which has always been hailed as the model of a secular Muslim culture, has found the separation of church and state a struggle to maintain, and the various threads on FYM about religion and politics -- regardless of whatever side people land -- attest to that fact even in the US.

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And definitely not enough of a threat, at least in my eyes, to start curtailing the religious freedoms of large segment of American citizens.
Here we definitely agree.
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:14 PM   #340
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when you´re a Muslim you´re subject to the laws of the country you live in.
Not necessarily in the UK, as we have exhaustively discussed in this thread.
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:47 PM   #341
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Not necessarily in the UK, as we have exhaustively discussed in this thread.
Who cares, laws in the UK are a giant clusterfuck anyway.
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:59 PM   #342
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No doubt, but all Muslims have to follow sharia law. Interpretations of the law may vary, but the law remains.
Sharia actually translates to 'Justice'. All Christians have to honor their mother and father. But this doesn't translate into all Muslims are governed by the tribunals, this is the part you seem to be ignoring.

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No, I said that all Muslims are ruled under sharia law. The six tribunals currently set up in the UK merely administer it.
Ok, now we're finally getting somewhere. You didn't seem to want to acknowledge the fact that not all Muslims are being subject to this tribunal Sharia law.


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Ask the six British citizens who were beaten by their husbands and told to return to them.
How many young girls in the US were forced to wives due to some misinterpretted Mormon law? There were conservatives that said the US government should have intervened. But British law eventually intervened.

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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
In 2008, the British government allowed for a separate legal system to enact its own laws within the country, over a specific segment of its citizens. That separate legal system has laws that at times conflict with established laws and legal principles, over which the British government decided they would not have jurisdiction, but would nonetheless have to enforce. Hence, many of its citizens are now ruled by Sharia, not British law -- hence, the British government has incorporated Sharia into the law of the land.
How did the British government decided they would "nonetheless have to enforce"?
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Old 09-25-2010, 10:55 AM   #343
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In the U.S., I would worry more about custom than law. The large Somali population here in Minneapolis are largely Muslim, but their custom of female genital mutilation still is being practiced. I don't think Islam says anything about that.


For my part, if the U.S. is going to embrace some religious law as part of our government system, let's make it the Kosher food laws. We might see less E-coli in our food system.
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Old 09-27-2010, 03:38 AM   #344
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I have been apathetic to this issue, not feeling strongly one way or another, until recently, when I really started thinking about it.

First off, this building is not a mosque; it is an Islamic community center. Not that the terminology makes any difference; whatever you call it, they have the right to build it wherever they want to.

If these people are forced by anyone to re-locate their community center, then those who forced them will be sending a dangerous message to every single person who cannot disassociate Islam from 9/11: "You're right. All Muslims are violent fanatics who hate the U.S.A. and freedom."

This message fuels, propagates, enables, and encourages the racist mindsets that make it so difficult for some to make the aforementioned disassociation. It also re-enforces the uneducated and simple-minded view that violent fanatical Muslims from the Middle East are violent and fanatical because they're Muslims, when in reality it's because they grow up poor, uneducated, angry, and feeling unheard, and because of all of that are vulnerable when they are ultimately brainwashed, manipulated, and used by people like Bin Laden to do their dirty work.

The level of baseless, ignorant, dangerous hatred that a large number of people in this country feel towards Muslims has got to be denounced and held in contempt by those that can be heard so that it is eventually denounced and held in contempt by all. I remember, during the 2008 campaign, Colin Powell was on one of the Sunday morning news programs one Sunday morning a few weeks before the election, and he was addressing the "Obama is a Muslim" BS, and he said something along the lines of, Obama isn't a Muslim, but so what if he was? And I have a great deal of respect for Powell for being one of the few prominent political figures that publicly said that, because he was challenging the same kind of rampant anti-Muslim mindsets behind this debate. More prominent political figures, or hell, prominent figures period, need to speak against these mindsets like that, so that we as a people become better educated and less hateful.
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Old 09-28-2010, 08:59 PM   #345
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In the U.S., I would worry more about custom than law. The large Somali population here in Minneapolis are largely Muslim, but their custom of female genital mutilation still is being practiced. I don't think Islam says anything about that.


For my part, if the U.S. is going to embrace some religious law as part of our government system, let's make it the Kosher food laws. We might see less E-coli in our food system.

I thought FGM was illegal through out the U.S. Since, it is very dangerous and there is no medical reason, what so ever to do it. Is it being done outside the medical community? Because, I haven't heard of any DR.s in Maryland hospitals or medical centers, doing this procedure.
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