Is U2 too optimistic?

[doctorwho]

I don't have a problem with optimism, but i will say that U2 are definitely guilty lately of OVERDOING IT.

Back to Beautiful Day...i said i loved this song, i always will, but i hate what it spawned. I think everyone all of a sudden around the world said "ahh yes, this is the real U2!" and U2 also fell for it. And from that point on their objective was this: "every hit song of ours must contain a reassuring and optimistic message." That's what killed U2 this decade. Beautiful Day was a mixed blessing.

I disagree.

When I look at ATYCLB, yes, BD was about being optimistic despite horrific circumstances - about finding the beauty in a world that's crashed around you. That's a powerful and refreshing message.

"Stuck in a Moment..." wasn't really optimistic, per se. It was more of a description - ultimately about suicide. The message was to move on and let go, but that's not optimistic, it's more realist, especially when the alternative is to take one's life!

"Walk On" is in a similar vein. Again, it's about being pramagtic more than optimistic. It's about surviving, doing what must be done to overcome. Some may feel that this is the definition of optimism - to see hope when there appears to be none. And in that case, yes, the song is optimistic, but really, the song is about moving forward and even accepting the pain. This differs from BD in that this person finds beauty no matter what. In "Walk On" the person finds the strength to continue while clearly seeing the negativity.

"Elevation" is a simple rock version of a gospel song. "I and I in the sky" is a direct reference to God. I know people can interpret songs many ways, but for me, this is THE interpretation to this song. In that aspect, it is about finding redemption and forgiveness. It is about a person who was at his lowest, but through God, was lifted up. It's more of a song of joy than optimism. And most gospels songs are just that - songs of praise and joy.

Even if one feels that all of these songs - the four hits from ATYCLB - are wildly optimistic, as they are all on the same album, clearly U2 didn't focus on the aspect you stated above - namely that U2 felt their songs MUST be optimistic in order to be hits. After all, this was arguably one of U2's lower points in their career. "Pop" was not a huge hit and there was a big backlash. ATYCLB was U2's way of responding to that challenge, of over-coming the naysayers and still creating good music. This theme is reflected throughout the album.

HTDAAB started out with "Vertigo" - hardly an optimistic song. In fact, depending on your interpretation, it could be very negative. It mocks the fake attitude people have with regards to religion (i.e., girl with cross around her neck) meaning people speak it but don't believe it. It's about a person who's lost and confused. The person finds some relief through another's love, but just barely. To me, it came across as a rocking fun song, that was actually very negative. This is similar to "I Still Haven't Found...". This became a gospel song, but really, it's a bit negative. The singer is still trying to find God, despite doing all he thinks he can. He's still searching and is not at peace. "Elevation" was different in that the singer now appears at peace.

"Sometimes..." came across as a "Lean On Me" type of song. Is it optimistic? Maybe - depends on your definition. I found it more of a "let me help you" type of song, even though in this case it was too late to help the person (Bono's father).

ABOY is simply a song about God, IMO. In fact, it's almost an "Elevation - Part 2". If that's optimistic, great - but it's really about joy. I don't necessarily equate the two.

COBL is about a city - the good and bad. It's seeing it as it is, blinding on all levels. Wonderful lights and beauty coupled with the screams and noise of one of the world's biggest cities. Hardly optimistic to me - but it comes across as such due to the music.

That, of course, brings us to music. If the music is uplifting, despite the more down-trodden lyrics, then even songs like "Desire" and "In God's Country" could be viewed as optimistic, despite their more negative lyrics. And that creates a fine line - negative lyrics with upbeat music = optimism?

Regardless, I don't feel that the success of BD has made U2 work on being overly optimistic. GOYB is hardly optimistic. "Magnificent" is Part 3 in the vein of "Elevation" and ABOY - fortunately, part 3 is the best. But much of NLOTH is about war, death, surrendering, etc. - hardly optimistic themes. ATYCLB just came across a bit more positive as U2 had to overcome the negativity that came their way with their last album.

 

[ozeeko]

I disagree.

When I look at ATYCLB, yes, BD was about being optimistic despite horrific circumstances - about finding the beauty in a world that's crashed around you. That's a powerful and refreshing message.

"Stuck in a Moment..." wasn't really optimistic, per se. It was more of a description - ultimately about suicide. The message was to move on and let go, but that's not optimistic, it's more realist, especially when the alternative is to take one's life!

"Walk On" is in a similar vein. Again, it's about being pramagtic more than optimistic. It's about surviving, doing what must be done to overcome. Some may feel that this is the definition of optimism - to see hope when there appears to be none. And in that case, yes, the song is optimistic, but really, the song is about moving forward and even accepting the pain. This differs from BD in that this person finds beauty no matter what. In "Walk On" the person finds the strength to continue while clearly seeing the negativity.

"Elevation" is a simple rock version of a gospel song. "I and I in the sky" is a direct reference to God. I know people can interpret songs many ways, but for me, this is THE interpretation to this song. In that aspect, it is about finding redemption and forgiveness. It is about a person who was at his lowest, but through God, was lifted up. It's more of a song of joy than optimism. And most gospels songs are just that - songs of praise and joy.

Even if one feels that all of these songs - the four hits from ATYCLB - are wildly optimistic, as they are all on the same album, clearly U2 didn't focus on the aspect you stated above - namely that U2 felt their songs MUST be optimistic in order to be hits. After all, this was arguably one of U2's lower points in their career. "Pop" was not a huge hit and there was a big backlash. ATYCLB was U2's way of responding to that challenge, of over-coming the naysayers and still creating good music. This theme is reflected throughout the album.

HTDAAB started out with "Vertigo" - hardly an optimistic song. In fact, depending on your interpretation, it could be very negative. It mocks the fake attitude people have with regards to religion (i.e., girl with cross around her neck) meaning people speak it but don't believe it. It's about a person who's lost and confused. The person finds some relief through another's love, but just barely. To me, it came across as a rocking fun song, that was actually very negative. This is similar to "I Still Haven't Found...". This became a gospel song, but really, it's a bit negative. The singer is still trying to find God, despite doing all he thinks he can. He's still searching and is not at peace. "Elevation" was different in that the singer now appears at peace.

"Sometimes..." came across as a "Lean On Me" type of song. Is it optimistic? Maybe - depends on your definition. I found it more of a "let me help you" type of song, even though in this case it was too late to help the person (Bono's father).

ABOY is simply a song about God, IMO. In fact, it's almost an "Elevation - Part 2". If that's optimistic, great - but it's really about joy. I don't necessarily equate the two.

COBL is about a city - the good and bad. It's seeing it as it is, blinding on all levels. Wonderful lights and beauty coupled with the screams and noise of one of the world's biggest cities. Hardly optimistic to me - but it comes across as such due to the music.

That, of course, brings us to music. If the music is uplifting, despite the more down-trodden lyrics, then even songs like "Desire" and "In God's Country" could be viewed as optimistic, despite their more negative lyrics. And that creates a fine line - negative lyrics with upbeat music = optimism?

Regardless, I don't feel that the success of BD has made U2 work on being overly optimistic. GOYB is hardly optimistic. "Magnificent" is Part 3 in the vein of "Elevation" and ABOY - fortunately, part 3 is the best. But much of NLOTH is about war, death, surrendering, etc. - hardly optimistic themes. ATYCLB just came across a bit more positive as U2 had to overcome the negativity that came their way with their last album.

I totally take your point, and i agree with you on the ATYCLB hits.

I feel that was an album they had to make, an album about loss, about grief, about belief, about hope. And i believe they did justice to those themes with songs that contained bright melodies set to comforting arrangements that filled you with optimism and reassurance.

I'm not saying every song since ATYCLB has been overly optimistic and reassuring, but a lot of songs do seem to be cut from the same mold.

Beautiful Day was unique in their catalog when it was written, so was Walk On and Stuck in a Moment. Despite their negative beginnings, it all pointed to a light at the end of the tunnel, and the lyrics were motivational...someone who needed that sort of push to make it to the next level may have been helped by the lyrics in those songs. Because the message in those songs is pretty much the same: life could be better, it's up to you to remain positive and make it better.

That was all fine and dandy...but then at some point the message just gets a little old...for me anyways. If you never get tired of hearing the same message, then great, the new U2 is definitely for you.

Original Of The Species: same message, life is hard, you just gotta be yourself and stay positive, then life will get better.

City Of Blinding Lights: We are all beautiful, and life will get better if we know how beautiful we are and stay positive.

Window In The Skies: life is getting better because of our remaining positive. Love will get us thru this.

Get On Your Boots: The days are dark, but if we just realize how beautiful we are (echoing COBL), then life will get better...remain positive.

Crazy Tonight: We can change the world in these dark times if we go crazy and shout into the darkness and remain positive. Life will get better.

Breathe: If we walk out into the sunburst street and sing our hearts out and remain positive then life will get better. Once again, remain positive in a harsh world.

Stand Up Comedy: Stand up for your love in these dark times, remain positive, life will get better.

Miracle Drug: If we remain positive with love and belief then we can conquer AIDS!

Even VERTIGO: I'm in a dark situation, but if i believe in God, love, remain positive, then I will get through this.

Love And Peace Or Else: Times are real tough, war is on, but if we can only spread the love and remain positive, then war will end.

I know some of those weren't, or aren't yet hits...but i just wanted to point out where i was coming from.

Their hits that aren't in the vein of remaining positive:

All Because Of You: Unfortunately it's one of their worst singles musically in my opinion.

Electrical Storm: One of their best hits of this decade (if you're talking about the Orbit mix). I like it because it's just depicting two lovers in a fight, and there's really no comforting message to be found other than "baby don't cry" and the desperate prayer for a rain to "wash away our bad luck". It's one of the rare tunes that isn't yelling at me, the listener, to rise up and shout joy and positivity into the darkness. Instead, it's just telling me to "listen. This is the situation. Take from it what you will."

Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own: A song for Bono's father. As expected, it's very personal and direct with emotion. I just wish the inspiration was given a better set of chords and melodies to run with. In the end i find it to be a little too bombastic, and at certain parts in the song i feel like an audience member at a live sitcom taping, and there's a blinking digital sign telling us to "cry" and "applaud" at the point where Bono sings "you're the reason i sing."

Anyway, I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

 

[HyperU2]

Writing depressing songs is too easy. What's that old Edge quote about punk bands not being able to see the light at the end of the tunnel?

 

[ozeeko]

Writing depressing songs is too easy. What's that old Edge quote about punk bands not being able to see the light at the end of the tunnel?

Dude, it's not that black and white.

Do you think that "Running To Stand Still" is an overtly depressing song? What about "With Or Without You"? How about "Until The End Of The World?" "The Fly"? "Numb"? None of those songs are positive, but they ain't depressing either!!!

Plus, they aren't self-motivational remain positive anthems!

People are missing the point.

As for depressing music is easy to write...yea, crappy cliched depressing music is easy to write...actual inspired and original good depressing music isn't! Same for happy music! You either suck at writing or you don't!

 

[ozeeko]

Another thing, i'm sick of this so called "easier songwriting". John Fogerty said the best songs are the simplest and are written the fastest. Hell, some of U2's best songs came together pretty quickly. "Bad" leaps to mind.

 

[dan_smee]

Yeah, optimism blows.

Where's that emo emoticon?

Let's all slash our wrists and write peotry about the colour black.

Weegieboard time

whats it say:

DIE DEATH I HATE LIFE FUCK THE WORLD DIEDIEDIEDIEDIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Incase you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic

 

[ozeeko]

Yeah, optimism blows.

Where's that emo emoticon?

Let's all slash our wrists and write peotry about the colour black.

Weegieboard time

whats it say:

DIE DEATH I HATE LIFE FUCK THE WORLD DIEDIEDIEDIEDIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Incase you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic

Sarcasm noted...but let me say that Emo is probably the the biggest crime ever done to music. the worst shit ever perpetrated amongst humans. and animals for that matter.

 

[dan_smee]

Sarcasm noted...but let me say that Emo is probably the the biggest crime ever done to music. the worst shit ever perpetrated amongst humans. and animals for that matter.

Then why is optimism derided?

 

[BVS]

Dude, it's not that black and white.

True, but you have avoided the harder questions asked of you...


and as a side note, I do think you miss the point of some of the songs you listed above. But that's part of the beauty, we all find different meanings...

 

[Bono's shades]

My problem isn't optimism. Pride and Streets are optimistic, and they are two of my favorite U2 songs ever. My problem is that beginning with Beautiful Day, U2's optimistic songs don't seem to have much depth to them. Just because you are writing something optimistic and uplifting doesn't mean you have to resort to platitudes like "It's a beautiful day, don't let it get away." (I do think Beautiful Day has some nice lyrics, but the chorus kind of kills it for me.)

 

[ozeeko]

True, but you have avoided the harder questions asked of you...


and as a side note, I do think you miss the point of some of the songs you listed above. But that's part of the beauty, we all find different meanings...

Subjectivity and all, yea, all the songs i listed basically, no matter what their starting point or inspiration was, they all get filtered thru the same message. It's like Bono stamping his brand name on every song...a little sticker that says "stay positive, life will get better, love Bono". That's what I get out of those songs.

What harder questions have i not answered?

 

[ozeeko]

Then why is optimism derided?

Does no one understand what I am talking about?

I have said numerous times: I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING AGAINST OPTIMISM!!!

I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For: If any one song by U2 gets me optimistic it's that song. Why would it, you ask me? Bono doesn't say anything optimistic in it, the title itself isn't optimistic. You know what is optimistic?? THE MUSIC! THE MELODY! THAT IS WHEN U2 SHINE!!!! WHEN THE MUSIC SELLS THE OPTIMISM WHILE BONO DOES WHAT HE DOES BEST, AND THAT IS....SIMPLY TELL A STORY!!!

The 2000's Bono would approach that song a different way:

He would sing "I still haven't found what i'm looking for....but i will find it as long as i stand up for love love love love love"

once again: I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING AGAINST OPTIMISM!!!!

 

[ozeeko]

My problem isn't optimism. Pride and Streets are optimistic, and they are two of my favorite U2 songs ever. My problem is that beginning with Beautiful Day, U2's optimistic songs don't seem to have much depth to them. Just because you are writing something optimistic and uplifting doesn't mean you have to resort to platitudes like "It's a beautiful day, don't let it get away." (I do think Beautiful Day has some nice lyrics, but the chorus kind of kills it for me.)

Thank you, someone who gets it.

Although i think Beautiful Day is a perfect song. Plus, it is the first of its kind in the U2 pantheon. It was after ATYCLB when they got carried away with the optimistic anthems.

 

[BVS]

What harder questions have i not answered?

You have not once mentioned a lyricist that you think writes about joy or optimism well...

 

[gvox]

You have not once mentioned a lyricist that you think writes about joy or optimism well...

Oh cmon BVS, there's always these guys:

YouTube - The Housemartins-The people who grinned themselves to death

 

[ozeeko]

You have not once mentioned a lyricist that you think writes about joy or optimism well...

Let me see...it's a hard question, but I know that at some point in these following artists careers they have written a good optimistic song
I hope these songs i listed are optimistic without seeming to be cynical

Bruce Springsteen (Born to Run)
Dylan (Forever Young)
Michael Hutchence/that other guy in INXS (Bitter Tears, New Sensation)
Bono (Beautiful Day)
Lou Reed (Beginning To See The Light)
Paul Simon (Bridge Over Troubled Water)
Prince (Let's Go Crazy)
Grateful Dead (although a poet friend writes most of their best lyrics) (Sugar Magnolia)
Peter Gabriel (In Your Eyes)
Van Morrison (Sweet Thing)
Leonard Cohen (Suzanne)
Billy Joel (Keeping The Faith)

there are a million i could list, but those are actually artists that i like

It's hard to find songs that are joyful yet cut off from any hint of sarcasm or cynicism. I don't really think it matters. I think most of the time it's the music itself that makes you optimistic. That's what i get hooked on.

Take for instance...Steely Dan's "Peg", it's a totally sarcastic song about a dead porn star, yet I feel great when i hear it, and the hook "it will come back to you" fills me with optimism. Is that so wrong?

 

[eviltwin]

No Optimism on the Horizon

I hope these songs i listed are optimistic without seeming to be cynical

Interesting that you would list some of the least understood singers/songwriters of our days, such as Springsteen, Lou Reed and Dylan to prove your point. Often misinterpreted, on which specifically Dylan and Springsteen have commented: the former really doesn't want to have any meaning attached to his songs, as he doesn't think they have any; while the latter has expressed disbelieve at the public's perception of albums like Born in the USA.

You are completely missing the cynicism, bitterness, darkness, bleakness and sometimes irony of many of their songs, as well as U2's.

I feel that was an album they had to make, an album about loss, about grief, about belief, about hope. And i believe they did justice to those themes with songs that contained bright melodies set to comforting arrangements that filled you with optimism and reassurance.

I'm not saying every song since ATYCLB has been overly optimistic and reassuring, but a lot of songs do seem to be cut from the same mold.

The proof that you are not interpreting HTDAAB correctly is in Fast Cars.

The entire album is about trying to dismantle an atomic bomb (i.c.: the loss of a loved one) when IT HAS ALREADY GONE OFF. The point being, that the entire endeavour is futile. How cynical can you get?

Similarly, a recurring theme in U2's songs is going into a metaphorical desert: a bleak desolate place. It's clear from Fast Cars' lyrics that it describes being stuck there. It even references the apathetic, drugged up state we recall from songs like Electric Co:

/Don't you worry about your mind/
/You should worry about the day/
/That the pain it goes away/
/You know I miss mine sometimes/

You want to be uplifted, you want to hear optimism, so that's what you're hearing. You're missing the irony. The optimism is debatable, the cynicism, the darkness, however, are not, they are real.

Only U2 can make an album of four men supposedly chopping down the Joshua Tree (a very bleak and dark album as I've previously said) only to come up with an album that is even darker, more cynical: "a heavy mother"...and then...people completely missing the point, not getting past the commercialism, theater and pomp that is only used as veneer to obscure the darkness inside, thinking they've gone pop or dance or techno
People didn't even get it when U2 struck them over the head with it on Zooropa or Pop.

Recurring themes, from Boy to NLOTH:

Death, suicide,
psychotherapy, heroin abuse,
nuclear holocaust, fascist oppression
soullessness of society, empty self gratification. etc.

Note that I'm not saying they make depressing songs, but if you are so inclined, they might be hard to swallow.

/Here's the rope/
/Now...swing away/

 

[Salome]

I have said numerous times: I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING AGAINST OPTIMISM!!!

I believe you don't have anything against optimism
actually, you almost seem a bit obsessed by it
the amount of songs where you hear Bono say "remain positive" while I only hear him describing a situation seems to be quite a list

 

[BVS]

Let me see...it's a hard question, but I know that at some point in these following artists careers they have written a good optimistic song

It is a hard question, because it's rare, that's why I thought you really misspoke when you said,

It comes down to this: you're either a good writer or you aint. If you have lyrical talent, then you can nail almost any mood, whether it be dark or light.

because I can think of a lot of great writers that have written tons of great songs, but very few that were actually joyful or optimistic.

I hope these songs i listed are optimistic without seeming to be cynical

Bruce Springsteen (Born to Run)
Dylan (Forever Young)
Michael Hutchence/that other guy in INXS (Bitter Tears, New Sensation)
Bono (Beautiful Day)
Lou Reed (Beginning To See The Light)
Paul Simon (Bridge Over Troubled Water)
Prince (Let's Go Crazy)
Grateful Dead (although a poet friend writes most of their best lyrics) (Sugar Magnolia)
Peter Gabriel (In Your Eyes)
Van Morrison (Sweet Thing)
Leonard Cohen (Suzanne)
Billy Joel (Keeping The Faith)

Good list, most of these I would categorize as great songs. Not all would I say fit in the category of what we're talking about though...

But the interesting thing about this list is there are great examples of what you're attacking Bono on...

Forevery Young is by far one of my favorite songs ever, but it's often attacked by his die hards as being one of Dylan's attempt to make a hit.

Let's Go Crazy, great song, weak ass lyric. You would crucify Bono if he wrote this lyric.

Let's go crazy
Let's get nuts
Let's look 4 the purple banana
'Til they put us in the truck, let's go!

In Your Eyes, another great example. A beloved song, but his version of interference is very divided, like we are about a song like Miracle Drug.

It's hard to find songs that are joyful yet cut off from any hint of sarcasm or cynicism. I don't really think it matters. I think most of the time it's the music itself that makes you optimistic. That's what i get hooked on.

That's great, but you particularlly focused in on Bono's lyrics...

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

If you want to know what optimism really is read Michael J Fox's new book. He's got a tv special on May 7th about it.

 

[ozeeko]

Interesting that you would list some of the least understood singers/songwriters of our days, such as Springsteen, Lou Reed and Dylan to prove your point. Often misinterpreted, on which specifically Dylan and Springsteen have commented: the former really doesn't want to have any meaning attached to his songs, as he doesn't think they have any; while the latter has expressed disbelieve at the public's perception of albums like Born in the USA.

You are completely missing the cynicism, bitterness, darkness, bleakness and sometimes irony of many of their songs, as well as U2's.



The proof that you are not interpreting HTDAAB correctly is in Fast Cars.

The entire album is about trying to dismantle an atomic bomb (i.c.: the loss of a loved one) when IT HAS ALREADY GONE OFF. The point being, that the entire endeavour is futile. How cynical can you get?

Similarly, a recurring theme in U2's songs is going into a metaphorical desert: a bleak desolate place. It's clear from Fast Cars' lyrics that it describes being stuck there. It even references the apathetic, drugged up state we recall from songs like Electric Co:

/Don't you worry about your mind/
/You should worry about the day/
/That the pain it goes away/
/You know I miss mine sometimes/

You want to be uplifted, you want to hear optimism, so that's what you're hearing. You're missing the irony. The optimism is debatable, the cynicism, the darkness, however, are not, they are real.

Only U2 can make an album of four men supposedly chopping down the Joshua Tree (a very bleak and dark album as I've previously said) only to come up with an album that is even darker, more cynical: "a heavy mother"...and then...people completely missing the point, not getting past the commercialism, theater and pomp that is only used as veneer to obscure the darkness inside, thinking they've gone pop or dance or techno
People didn't even get it when U2 struck them over the head with it on Zooropa or Pop.

Recurring themes, from Boy to NLOTH:

Death, suicide,
psychotherapy, heroin abuse,
nuclear holocaust, fascist oppression
soullessness of society, empty self gratification. etc.

Note that I'm not saying they make depressing songs, but if you are so inclined, they might be hard to swallow.

/Here's the rope/
/Now...swing away/

I didn't talk about Fast Cars because I think it's one of their most unique songs this decade, and the lyric is awesome, and its a shame it wasn't on every version of BOMB, the one i bought didn't have it.

The only thing i'm pointing out with the songs i mentioned is that Bono's repeating the same ideas over and over again, songs that contain the same message, no matter if they're about Africa or war or negativity in general- they all get neatly wrapped up in Bono's ongoing message, and that is that we will overcome the darkness if we...(insert Bono command here-walk on, walk out, shout it out, go crazy...etc) . That's what i get from them, if you don't, then that's all peaches and cream.

Thanks for letting me in on the fact that Springsteen and Dylan are misunderstood. That was quite a revelation. But if you noticed, i didn't list Dylan's "Mr. Tambourine Man" as an example of positive songwriting. So don't try to steer the conversation in another direction just because you find Dylan to be misunderstood. I was merely pointing out an exception in his repertoir.

 

[ozeeko]

It is a hard question, because it's rare, that's why I thought you really misspoke when you said,



because I can think of a lot of great writers that have written tons of great songs, but very few that were actually joyful or optimistic.

Good list, most of these I would categorize as great songs. Not all would I say fit in the category of what we're talking about though...

But the interesting thing about this list is there are great examples of what you're attacking Bono on...

Forevery Young is by far one of my favorite songs ever, but it's often attacked by his die hards as being one of Dylan's attempt to make a hit.

Let's Go Crazy, great song, weak ass lyric. You would crucify Bono if he wrote this lyric.



In Your Eyes, another great example. A beloved song, but his version of interference is very divided, like we are about a song like Miracle Drug.



That's great, but you particularlly focused in on Bono's lyrics...

Where you claim that i misspoke....it was in response to a comment someone made about dark music being easy to write, to which i responded "how is it any easier than writing happy music?" You're referring to lyrics while i'm just referring to music. I think it's tough, i'll admit, to find really well written artistic lyrics that deal with positivity and joy, because i think most great writers write from within, and most of them are probably more inspired by real life, and life as we know it is a mix of good and bad, yet the bad stuff is what really sticks with us, which haunts us and nags at us.

I was only focusing on Bono's lyrics because we're in a U2 forum, plain and simple. If you want to talk about Scott Stapp then ok...although i really wouldn't want to waste my time.

 

[ozeeko]

I believe you don't have anything against optimism
actually, you almost seem a bit obsessed by it
the amount of songs where you hear Bono say "remain positive" while I only hear him describing a situation seems to be quite a list

I'm not obsessed, I just felt like no one was understanding what i was talking about.

If you get more out of these songs than me then that's awesome.

I just feel like i'm getting the same advice from him over and over again. It's like "okaaaayy, i get it already. Do i need everything spoonfed to me?"

 

[BVS]

Where you claim that i misspoke....it was in response to a comment someone made about dark music being easy to write, to which i responded "how is it any easier than writing happy music?" You're referring to lyrics while i'm just referring to music. I think it's tough, i'll admit, to find really well written artistic lyrics that deal with positivity and joy, because i think most great writers write from within, and most of them are probably more inspired by real life, and life as we know it is a mix of good and bad, yet the bad stuff is what really sticks with us, which haunts us and nags at us.

I was only focusing on Bono's lyrics because we're in a U2 forum, plain and simple. If you want to talk about Scott Stapp then ok...although i really wouldn't want to waste my time.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying...

But you were the one focusing on his lyrics in several posts in several different sections of this forum and now you seem to want to talk around it.

I have no clue where the Scott Stapp shit comes from...

My whole point is the joy and optimism are hard to write about, and I actually acknowledge the faults that Bono has made trying to do so, but I acknowledge him pushing himself to do so and really love the times he gets it right...

 

[eviltwin]

I didn't talk about Fast Cars

Well i'ts only the key to the entire album...

/here in the desert to dismantle an atomic bom/

as much as Walk On is to ATYCLB.

That was quite a revelation.

So you do understand sarcasme! Now go on and get to grips with irony and cynicism. Start with Beautiful Day.

you find Dylan to be misunderstood

This isn't about Dylan and I wasn't the one to bring him up. Besides I don't care for Dylan much; only through other artists, like Hendrix. The point is that Dylan doesn't want to be understood, since he feels there is no meaning, hidden or otherwise.

This thread is about U2's percieved optimism, you give an example of a single song with a silver lining in a repertoire full of darkness (both for U2 and the other artists mentioned) which proves nothing, only that you are missing the other 99% of their meaning and intent, as well as the point of my post.

Prime example: Born to Run, it isn't about freedom, it's escapism, it describes the suffocating emptiness of small-town America and offers only as a last resort the option to flee, to where? It doesn't matter, anywhere is better than there.

It starts with:
/Its a death trap, its a suicide rap/
/We gotta get out while were young/

but only offers:
/Someday girl I dont know when were gonna get to that place/

Optimism? Not really
A glimmer of hope? If that at all, I think he knows that you cannot actually outrun this...

 

[ImOuttaControl]

I don't see U2 as being overly optimistic or quite as dark as a lot of the people in this thread would argue. A lot of people on both sides of the arguement are clinging to one lyric and trying to label the song.

To me, the common themes in most U2 songs is that sense of searching, that light at the end of tunnel...going into the darkness to see the light. I think what U2 is excellent at is the ability to throw an optimistic line(or tone) into a very dark song.

Also, I'm not exactly sure why so many people are focusing simply on the lyrics...the music plays a larger part(imo) than the lyrics in whether or not a song "feels" optimistic or pessemistic. Based on lyrics alone, Bad is a dark song....but that music, to me, is incredibly inspiring.. Add that to hearing Bono scream "let it go!" and "I'm wide awake!" is incredibly inspiring in the way that there's a huge sense of release...sort of like "don't give up on me"

It's all a matter of perspective and interpretation in the end. It's about what you choose to hear. Some people may hear the negative, some people hear the positive. There are times that I might listen to Stuck in a Moment and find it very dark and times I find it very optimistic...This is why I think U2 is such an incredible band...the songs aren't one dementional.

 

[ozeeko]

To me, the common themes in most U2 songs is that sense of searching, that light at the end of tunnel...going into the darkness to see the light. I think what U2 is excellent at is the ability to throw an optimistic line(or tone) into a very dark song.

Also, I'm not exactly sure why so many people are focusing simply on the lyrics...the music plays a larger part(imo) than the lyrics in whether or not a song "feels" optimistic or pessemistic. Based on lyrics alone, Bad is a dark song....but that music, to me, is incredibly inspiring.. Add that to hearing Bono scream "let it go!" and "I'm wide awake!" is incredibly inspiring in the way that there's a huge sense of release...sort of like "don't give up on me"
.

WE HAVE A WINNER!

This guy totally gets it.

Bono screaming "I'm wide awake" in a song about a heroin addict moves me more than all the walk ons/crazytonights/windowintheskies/standupcomedys/breathes/originalofthespecies and miracledrugs combined. It fills me with optimism despite its bleak subject matter. You know why? Cuz the music is powerful, Bono's vocals are powerful...end of story. He doesn't need to coddle me in the song and tell me everything is going to be alright as long as he "stays wide awake and walks into the sun and yells out into the darkness until light comes shining in and he feels beautiful and then he climbs a mountain and says we all look beautiful tonight and God is love and love is all you need"- No, he simply just says "I'm wide awake. Im' not sleeping". No further explanation needed.

I'm sure this will confuse people even more.

 

[Salome]

you seem to be the only one though who reckons 'all the walk ons/crazytonights/windowintheskies/standupcomedys/breathes/originalofthespecies and miracledrugs' only aim is to tell you to 'stay positive'

perhaps you should give these songs a chance and see whether they are really that one-dimensional
or you don't and write another 4,000 post over the next fortnight on how positive Bono gets on your nerves

 

[ozeeko]

Well i'ts only the key to the entire album...

/here in the desert to dismantle an atomic bom/

as much as Walk On is to ATYCLB.



So you do understand sarcasme! Now go on and get to grips with irony and cynicism. Start with Beautiful Day.



This isn't about Dylan and I wasn't the one to bring him up. Besides I don't care for Dylan much; only through other artists, like Hendrix. The point is that Dylan doesn't want to be understood, since he feels there is no meaning, hidden or otherwise.

This thread is about U2's percieved optimism, you give an example of a single song with a silver lining in a repertoire full of darkness (both for U2 and the other artists mentioned) which proves nothing, only that you are missing the other 99% of their meaning and intent, as well as the point of my post.

Prime example: Born to Run, it isn't about freedom, it's escapism, it describes the suffocating emptiness of small-town America and offers only as a last resort the option to flee, to where? It doesn't matter, anywhere is better than there.

It starts with:
/Its a death trap, its a suicide rap/
/We gotta get out while were young/

but only offers:
/Someday girl I dont know when were gonna get to that place/

Optimism? Not really
A glimmer of hope? If that at all, I think he knows that you cannot actually outrun this...

If Fast Cars was the key to understanding the BOMB, then wouldn't you say it was quite foolish of them to leave it off the regular editions of the album? I don't know why you keep harping on about Fast Cars. It wasn't even part of the discussion...and i like Fast Cars!!! I like it because it's NOT like those other songs i was talking about! If you want to talk about Fast Cars then open a Fast Cars appreciation thread! I'll join in and spread the love!

I think you're being a tad condescending with all the "irony" and "cynicism" comments. You say "start with beautiful day". Uhh...I DID ALREADY, GO BACK A PAGE OR TWO! I EXPLAINED WHY BEAUTIFUL DAY HITS HOME BECAUSE OF ITS IRONY! Sorry for yelling, but I mean come on, am i just wasting my time writing these responses? are you even reading what i write?

You don't care for Dylan, great! I do.

You say Born To Run contains no optimism because it's more of an escape song. Well, isn't "Where The Streets Have No Name" sort of an escape song? "I want to run, i want to hide." Sounds to me like Bono doesn't quite like where he is at the moment in that one. But it's a pretty optimistic song anyway, wouldn't you say? And i never said Born To Run was about freedom. Bruce says "one day..." which is optimistic...he's looking towards the future, a future that may be better than this. If he said "we're never getting out of this town", then yea, that would be quite pessimistic. But no, he's saying he will get out. Whether it happens or not, who knows, then again it's a song so whatever. Maybe in Beautiful Day the main character gets hit by a truck after the song finishes. However it turns out for the character in whatever song is completely up to you, but jsut because you have a different vision of what may happen, doesn't mean discounting the actual lyrics in the song. You could say in Living On A Prayer that the two won't make it, they'll remain "halfway there" for eternity, never totally "getting there." Fine, it's probably realistic, but does that mean the song ceases to be optimistic, because there's a chance that these fictional characters in a song may not get what they're after?

I get the irony in Beautiful Day, I see what Bono TRIED to do in Stand Up Comedy with all the self deprecation (if anything he just made himself look worse), but maybe you can enlighten me...where's the irony and the cynicism in songs like OOTS, COBL, MD, CT? To me they all seem very much on the surface.

 

[ozeeko]

you seem to be the only one though who reckons 'all the walk ons/crazytonights/windowintheskies/standupcomedys/breathes/originalofthespecies and miracledrugs' only aim is to tell you to 'stay positive'

perhaps you should give these songs a chance and see whether they are really that one-dimensional
or you don't and write another 4,000 post over the next fortnight on how positive Bono gets on your nerves

You just don't get it, man. That's fine. I don't hate positive Bono, i just think he's repeating himself (pretty much like me at this point) a lot lately with the same message over and over again.