Vlad n U 2
Blue Crack Addict
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2008
- Messages
- 28,386
That is a smaller sample size though, it's way easier to have a productive discussion when there are only half a dozen regular contributors.
Another thought is to allow/recruit some centrist and conservative leaning mods...
Perhaps I'm not being clear. It is his personal opinion and status as a mod - and the lack of other, perhaps more neutral mods - that makes the forum less enjoyable. He should either be quiet about his opinions, or add other mods with different views.You're smarter than that. I don't mean to be blunt, but if you can't tell when somebody is posting their personal opinion and when they are moderating a thread, I would suggest working on your reading comprehension.
Hey, we both did. And that's okay. In fact, because of the debates with Melon in THIS FORUM back in 2004, that I changed my mind (somewhat - I'm still a confessed homophobe) on the matter. And that is my point - unless you allow a healthy (even if heated) debate to occur, nothing will change.Let's not drag into this discussion all the stupid shit I said a whole decade ago during my weird religious phase or we'll be here all night. All week if it comes complete with the Axver Liked U2 Too Much Archives.
Fair enough, and thank you for not denying that you did send it - which should help others understand that back then - there was an "undergound" Conservative support system because of the bullying going on by the Liberals in the public forum.And let's be honest, "I got lots of PMs!" is never a good defence, no matter how true it sometimes is. I'm not suggesting I doubt you; it's just a poor Internet debating technique.
I agree I've been more caustic in this thread than usual. I guess I just wanted to point out that the incident is not so clear-cut. But I also think I made numerous valid points that went unaddressed - but I'm used to that. Only non-Liberals get hounded to answer EVERY SINGLE post without being accused of evading the question. That being said - I'm willing to check-fire and make adjustments.I don't want to drag this too far off-topic, but I don't think the problem is the lack of far-right nutters (I didn't think you were one, though your behaviour in this thread is making me wonder - partly because of the positions you are arguing and partly because of how you are doing so).
Perhaps. But the forum has always been pretty "Americentric"...I think the problem is that this forum is really, really, really Americentric, and US political debate seems to only function at present if it is hyper-polarised. It's not really much of a global politics forum, is it? Even when threads start for events outside the US, there is a habit of it coming back to some US dispute because most posters are from the US. I seem to recall there was a bit more on the global politics front some years ago but they tended to get lost amidst all the US threads and many international posters drifted away - and now that things are a bit quieter, their absence is really obvious.
Perhaps I'm not being clear. It is his personal opinion and status as a mod - and the lack of other, perhaps more neutral mods - that makes the forum less enjoyable. He should either be quiet about his opinions, or add other mods with different views.
Hey, we both did. And that's okay. In fact, because of the debates with Melon in THIS FORUM back in 2004, that I changed my mind (somewhat - I'm still a confessed homophobe) on the matter. And that is my point - unless you allow a healthy (even if heated) debate to occur, nothing will change.
Fair enough, and thank you for not denying that you did send it - which should help others understand that back then - there was an "undergound" Conservative support system because of the bullying going on by the Liberals in the public forum.
I agree I've been more caustic in this thread than usual. I guess I just wanted to point out that the incident is not so clear-cut. But I also think I made numerous valid points that went unaddressed - but I'm used to that. Only non-Liberals get hounded to answer EVERY SINGLE post without being accused of evading the question. That being said - I'm willing to check-fire and make adjustments.
Perhaps. But the forum has always been pretty "Americentric"...
You know - it may serve this forum better to have a more politically neutral mod. Unless the intention is for this forum to be a backslapping Liberal circle-jerk. If that IS the intention, you are succeeding quite well. That is also why it is dying a slow (but accelerating) death.
A few years back in FYM - debate across the political spectrum was encouraged (yet, it was never exactly equal - but this is a U2 website - so Left-leaning is expected). Now, it seems you've bullied/bored away any dissenting (i.e. - non-Liberal) opinions.
I have no way of knowing that.
The reason this forum is so liberal is not because the mods and members chased out the right wingers.
To the assertion that conservatives are less represented on this forum now than they were say ten years ago: I think that is a reflection of US politics as a whole. Over the past decade, the American right has gone out of its way in efforts to dissolve those things the USA purports itself most to stand for: equality of rights and opportunity. This is apparent everywhere from attacks on unions to efforts to curtail minority rights, from uncompromising stances on women's reproductive rights to insistence that LGBT people should not be allowed marriage rights. Then when asked to justify these stances, there is little more than appeals to logical fallacies, as when Indy when pressed on gay marriage just kept insisting that it would lead to people marrying dogs and goats or whatever.
The intransigence the Right has shown is conspicuously apparent in the last presidential election, where Romney received little to no support from women and minorities. Conservative politics are increasingly untenable for a majority of the US population. This doesn't mean that an individual conservative has nothing of value to say or that he or she should be discounted just for identifying as a conservative, but rather that the movement as a whole is painting itself into a pretty tight corner. I think voting statistics bear this out.
I find the comments sections on news websites to be about 90% full of unhinged morons who don't seem to be able to spell or use grammar correctly. But maybe that's just Australia.
There's that - and a lot of extremism (which is concerning). My point is that the comments vary wildly.
I don't think we need that much craziness here, but a little more variety would probably be more thought provoking. Believe it or not - there are intelligent conservative/centrists out there...
Of course - if the Liberals here love things the way they are, why would they change anything? They will (already have) argue there's no need to change anything. However, if you want to hear some different points of view and genuinely engage with people with a different world view than your own - then changing the role of the mods or adding a conservative and centrist mod might be a good way to get that going.
My intention was to get you to explain your position more thoroughly. In my view, trying to get members to explain their positions better is a perfectly acceptable role for a moderator.
Perhaps then it would be helpful if you acknowledged that more often when it occurs.And you have gone on to explain your position more thoroughly, which I think improves the quality of the debate, and makes it less soundbitey and more substantive.
Again, unless I missed it - acknowledging that more often and in close proximity to the post would be very helpful. I am not looking for agreement, but a little acknowledgement for taking a perfect valid position would go a long way toward inviting opposing views.For example, when you started describing Mike Brown as a "thug," a term that I think we can all agree is racially tinged and inflammatory, and then doubled down on it when I voiced my concern for your usage of it, my view is you deserved push back for that, and should be expected to explain yourself. Which you did, and I think you stated pretty eloquently that what people put out there as a representation of themselves should be accessible to form an opinion of their character - which is a perfectly valid position.
That's fine. I thought the term "thug" was a more specific term (like "gangsta"). However, pointing out his own music page, tweets, fb posts, photos - is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. I am not a racist for doing so. Nor would it be racist for someone to point to the same type of information by Darren Wilson. It was/is relevant to the discussion.BUT, and I hope you appreciate this distinction - while I might not agree with your interpretation of Mike Brown's character, your more in depth explanation is a lot more useful to this debate, and a lot less inflammatory than just going around calling him a thug.
No - we differ in that you seem to have a different requirement for "moving the debate" for liberals than for non-liberals and assert your own politics too often (my opinion). If you were a user, I'm all for it. But when you wear both hats interchangeably - I feel like I'm a playing an away baseball game against the opposing team AND the umpires. Does that make sense? That's why I think that adding conservative/centrist mods may be a solution if we allow mods to join the debate.So I feel that my pushback (and the pushback of others) is useful in moving the debate to a more considered space, and honestly, I would feel lax in my duty as a moderator if I didn't push back against that. Clearly that is where you and I differ.
I agree - and it was not my intent to put the entire blame of the withering away of FYM on you, only part of it Yes, you have come to my defense more than a few times - and I do appreciate that. But we non-liberals would also like a little credit from time to time when we have fully answered a challenging question (even if the conclusion is not agreed upon) and made a valid/challenging point. Also, a little love would be nice when we do in fact change our position during the course of a thread (as it would be a total shock to see a liberal here change their mind on something mid-thread).As for the other conservative voices that no longer feel welcome, that is unfortunate. It's true that FYM isn't as active as it used to be. Some of that can be attributed to my moderation, for sure. I'm aware that I'm not perfectly neutral. Some of that can be attributed to the fact that a lot of the topics in FYM have been debated so much that they've kind of become settled in this community, or at least people are less eager to rehash the same old points over and over. Some of that can be attributed to it being a lull in between election cycles. Some of it can be attributed to people being in a different place in their lives and not spending as much time here. Certainly the case for me - in the 14 years (yikes!) I've been here I've gone from being a college student living in the dorms with plenty of time to kill to a small business owner with a wife and a home and wishes to start a family. And some of it can be attributed to the fact that some of the conservative voices that are no longer with us chose to go down a route that put them at odds with the rules of this forum. I certainly don't think it all comes down to me.
The problem is this: you're wrong and you've always been wrong. American liberals DEFINITIVELY have a more realistic view of race relations in this country than moderates or conservatives. Period. End of fucking story. This isn't liberals co-opting a tragedy. This is liberals being proven right about institutionalized racism in this country.
Police sources tell me more than a dozen witnesses have corroborated cop's version of events in shooting #Ferguson
Christine Byers is a crime reporter for the St. Louis Post Dispatch.
https://twitter.com/ChristineDByers/status/501556693382094848
If this thing goes to trial - it might get ugly.
In breaking news, police say police are right.
I actually laughed at that one too. And there's some truth to it.I found this response funny:
I'm still a confessed homophobe
That clarifies things re. your position on racial issues too. Good to know.
What are my positions on racial issues?
Please find the quote where I said that.Oh, and clearly, listening to hip hop makes one a "thug",
My "homophobia" is limited to my inability to understand it. This lack of understanding does not mean that I "dislike" homosexuals - nor do I think they should be mistreated in any way.but disliking homossexuals somehow is ok?
Yes - and a centrist.And yet, the problem with this forum is the lack of a right wing moderator?
The fact that you really believe your comments in this thread are not about race is a rather perfect summation of your position on racial issues.