It's Official - America has gone to HELL

[VertigoGal]

Of course he was a bad man, but I honestly don't think the professor not going into detail about Mao's evil deeds is really the significant point of the article.

 

[financeguy]

I agree that the American political mindset is as ...although about Ireland I was under the impression that it was one of the more conservative of the European countries.

I think there is truth in this, but even still a political party advocating essentially unreconstructed socialism (arguably even revolutionary socialism) gets around 10% of the vote here. Personally I think they're nuts but that's just an opinion mind.

But if you add up the combined votes of the three main genuinely left wing parties over here, it's still only around 30%, maybe less, so your point has validity.

Then again compare that, for example, to the very small % that voted for Ralph Nader in '04, probably the closest thing to a socialist candidate.

Granted, Kerry had a pretty left leaning voting record.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The individual politician cannot move mountains without support from his party and invariably this means that compromise must be sought. An example in Australia is the coalition because the nationals view towards subsidies is not in line with a classical liberal free trade agenda.

 

[VertigoGal]

I think there is truth in this, but even still a political party advocating essentially unreconstructed socialism (arguably even revolutionary socialism) gets around 10% of the vote here. Personally I think they're nuts but that's just an opinion mind.

Compare that, for example, to the very small % that voted for Ralph Nader in '04, probably the closest thing to a socialist candidate.

Granted, Kerry had a pretty left leaning voting record.

Yeah, as you can probably imagine it's virtually a crime to be a socialist here (I mean politically), but Kerry was pretty liberal for Americans and got 48% of the vote. Just like the small-government conservatives who rush to defend wire-tapping without a warrant. Basically the parties can stand for anything they want as long as they pretend to appeal to the hard-working, taxes=theft, up by the bootstraps mentality.

Or something

 

[AvsGirl41]

Then it seems to me that he should have chosen his words a little more carefully. Mao murdered millions and showed no regret for it whatsoever and the sad thing is many people look at him like some kind of folk hero. Even though he is dead his ideas still live on...and they are dangerous ideas the same as Hitler's, Lenin's, and Stalin's.

See, this is what scares me about FYM...do you see the forest, or just some trees, Ft. Worth?

The point of the article is that Homeland Security chased down a college student who checked out a Communism book for a paper. Any agent with a brain should have been able to deduce that this was likely a history or political science student who was doing research. If he'd checked out "Uncle Fester's Cookbook" well, ok.

I study Russian history in college. I've checked out tons of books on Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin. I've downloaded articles and photos from Marxist.org. I emptied the shelves of Chechen war reports. Should they come knocking on my door? That's the question here.

But no, let's focus on a sound bite from a professor. Oh my god, he didn't condemn Mao. Do you realize that if he had launched a tirade, the newsreporter would have cut it out anyway? That's Journalism 101. Streamline your article so the important stuff is first, and the least important last.

Yes, this is what is scary about FYM debates anymore.

 

[financeguy]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1336116,curpg-1.cms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_North

'Oliver Laurence North (born October 7, 1943) was a member of the Marine Corps who achieved the rank of Lieutenant Colonel. He rose to national prominence because of the Iran-Contra Affair, during which he was a key official in the clandestine and illegal selling of weapons to Iran in order to earn money for the Contras during U.S. President Ronald Reagan's administration. Today, he is a conservative political commentator.'


Are the articles published by Oliver North on watch lists too?

 

[VertigoGal]

maybe the title of this thread should be changed to "It's Official- FYM has gone to HELL." Not that I think that by any means but it does seem to be a recurring theme

 

[doctorwho]

Re: Re: Re: It's Official - America has gone to HELL

Perfect description of this administration.

I hope his supporters are proud.

Shhh.... we shouldn't upset King George! He gets mad and may come on TV again to make another speech saying how he, King George, is responsible for the war and therefore we must win the war. Thanks to King George, we apparently are winning the war! All hail King George!

 

[Dreadsox]

Initially my attitude was wtf....

after reading the article and thinking about it....

It appears that there were multiple check points that triggered the investigation not just the book.

I think it was a good call.

----------------------------------------

Do I dare read all the stuff after the first post and mine?

 

[Dreadsox]

How exactly has anyone's freedome been limited? If the person checking out the book had multiple hits on a homeland security checklist including the book, then he should be checked out.

I think we should all check out the book and see if it happens to us.

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

See, this is what scares me about FYM...do you see the forest, or just some trees, Ft. Worth?

The point of the article is that Homeland Security chased down a college student who checked out a Communism book for a paper. Any agent with a brain should have been able to deduce that this was likely a history or political science student who was doing research. If he'd checked out "Uncle Fester's Cookbook" well, ok.

I study Russian history in college. I've checked out tons of books on Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin. I've downloaded articles and photos from Marxist.org. I emptied the shelves of Chechen war reports. Should they come knocking on my door? That's the question here.

But no, let's focus on a sound bite from a professor. Oh my god, he didn't condemn Mao. Do you realize that if he had launched a tirade, the newsreporter would have cut it out anyway? That's Journalism 101. Streamline your article so the important stuff is first, and the least important last.

Yes, this is what is scary about FYM debates anymore.

What's scary? All I did was comment on his apparent views toward Mao. Look, I have done some Russian history and bought books on Russian history too and it is apparent that the government does not give a darn about that or what you studied for that matter. If that was the case then there would probably be no Russian studies anywhere would there? It is pretty clear that the student was not just some random Joe Schmo from suburbia wearing his mandatory "Che Guevara is God" t-shirt.

I am not looking for a condemnation of Mao but he just seemed flippant about Mao which seems to be a mistake to me.

 

[deep]

Initially my attitude was wtf....

after reading the article and thinking about it....

It appears that there were multiple check points that triggered the investigation not just the book.

I think it was a good call.

----------------------------------------

Do I dare read all the stuff after the first post and mine?

the student was told by the agents that the book is on a "watch list," and that his background, which included significant time abroad, triggered them to investigate the student further.


The Little Red Book, is a collection of quotations and speech excerpts from Chinese leader Mao Tse-Tung.
In the 1950s and '60s, during the Cultural Revolution in China, it was required reading. Although there are abridged versions available, the student asked for a version translated directly from the original book.

the Homeland Security agents told him the book was on a "watch list." They brought the book with them, but did not leave it with the student, the professors said.

did i miss anything?


I asked myself the same questions you did



i came to a different conclusion

 

[Kieran McConville]

I'm still screaming, Cai7enema, I'm still screaming!

 

[Earnie Shavers]

If this guy has triggered alarm through other activities, it still doesn't make sense that they'd step in and make a fuss over the loan of this book. Am I the only one who thinks this? It's a weird point to step in, and a weird thing to step in over. You can only assume that the other activites that got notice were as trivial and insignificant as this. I mean, if they thought the guys stint overseas involved shady dealings or shady people, he would have been pulled over that, but he wasn't. He was pulled for loaning out a fucking book that is required reading for thousands and thousands of students. I mean, it's like they saw the book loan and went "Ha ha! We got you!!" If that's the best they've got.... seriously....

 

[A_Wanderer]

It looks like there are issues of protocol involved, downside to enhancing any security apparatus and applying uniform checks and balances is that you see some wonderfully absurd examples of investigation.

 

[Calluna]

I'm still screaming, Cai7enema, I'm still screaming!

I have to keep on laughing because I know that if I stop I will start screaming.

 

[hiphop]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_North

'Oliver Laurence North (born October 7, 1943) was a member of the Marine Corps who achieved the rank of Lieutenant Colonel. He rose to national prominence because of the Iran-Contra Affair, during which he was a key official in the clandestine and illegal selling of weapons to Iran in order to earn money for the Contras during U.S. President Ronald Reagan's administration. Today, he is a conservative political commentator.'


Are the articles published by Oliver North on watch lists too?

Oliver North was involved in some heavy drug trafficking in Central America (weapons vs. coke) - (source. a German intelligence official - Jürgen something - wrote about him).

He´s a commentator now? How weird is that.

 

[AchtungBono]

we've got to protect our freedom by limiting our freedom. it makes sense to me, guys. freedom. did i mention our freedom and how the terrorists hate it? freedom.

That was VERY WELL SAID....

I wish the Americans would realize that all these measures are being taken to save their lives and to prevent another 9/11.

What is a knock on the door compared to a bomb on the subway????

 

[A_Wanderer]

That was VERY WELL SAID....

I wish the Americans would realize that all these measures are being taken to save their lives and to prevent another 9/11.

What is a knock on the door compared to a bomb on the subway????

I am pretty sure that was sarcasm, and as somebody who has probably raised more than a few of these red flags and continues to do so I do not think that this is an effective use of valuable and limited resources.

 

[Dismantled]

That was VERY WELL SAID....

I wish the Americans would realize that all these measures are being taken to save their lives and to prevent another 9/11.

What is a knock on the door compared to a bomb on the subway????

a knock on the door is better than a bomb in the subway....although these measures are not going to stop another 9.11 ....wiping out terrorism will.

 

[A_Wanderer]

You cannot wipe out terrorism, it is a means to an end. What can be done is to combat the ideology, that can only be done by a massive shift in political power in the middle east in particular Saudi Arabia. But we can't just go at it directly it has to be influenced a little bit more indirectly and with a long term policy in place that can be pursued by successive administrations. One that moves beyond the cold-war mentalities of the so-called "realists".

 

[melon]

The West and the Soviet Union spent a century messing up the Middle East between colonialism, the poor execution of the creation of Israel, and Cold War politics. Who is really surprised that it's turned into the bastion of fanaticism, unemployment, and stupidity that it is today?

Melon

 

[A_Wanderer]

The philosophy that drives todays Islamic terrorists is not so far removed of the holy warriors of centuries past. Maybe we should think of them as revivalists.

 

[Dreadsox]

did i miss anything?


I asked myself the same questions you did



i came to a different conclusion

Somewhere in your article it talks about other hits involving the individual that checked out the book. It was his background coupled with the book, NOT the book.

 

[financeguy]

The philosophy that drives todays Islamic terrorists is not so far removed of the holy warriors of centuries past. Maybe we should think of them as revivalists.

Well yes. And the Bush dynasty as a kind of Bourbon restoration perhaps, a point made very clearly by Kevin Phillips in his book 'American Dynasty'.

 

[melon]

The philosophy that drives todays Islamic terrorists is not so far removed of the holy warriors of centuries past. Maybe we should think of them as revivalists.

Again, not a surprise. They're looking towards a romanticized view of their glory days when they called all the shots. The 20th century didn't fare so well for Muslim civilization.

Melon

 

[BVS]

That was VERY WELL SAID....

I wish the Americans would realize that all these measures are being taken to save their lives and to prevent another 9/11.

What is a knock on the door compared to a bomb on the subway????

I don't know to or or

 

[AchtungBono]

The West and the Soviet Union spent a century messing up the Middle East between colonialism, the poor execution of the creation of Israel, and Cold War politics. Who is really surprised that it's turned into the bastion of fanaticism, unemployment, and stupidity that it is today?

Melon

Poor execution of the creation of Israel??? Just what did you mean by that?

 

[AchtungBono]

I am pretty sure that was sarcasm, and as somebody who has probably raised more than a few of these red flags and continues to do so I do not think that this is an effective use of valuable and limited resources.

No Wanderer, it wasn't sarcasm - I was being serious.

Would you resent a cop stopping a speeding car before the car gets involved in a fatal accident? - NO you wouldn't because the cop stopping the car is a preventive measure (or at least SHOULD be). I believe this is the same principle. The goal here is not to harm the freedom of the American citizens - it is to try and locate those those people hidden among the population "under the radar" and find them before its too late.

Don't you wish someone would have wondered about 19 people taking flight lessons who were only interested in learning how to take off and not how to land? ..... I know I do....

 

[BVS]

No Wanderer, it wasn't sarcasm - I was being serious.

Would you resent a cop stopping a speeding car before the car gets involved in a fatal accident? - NO you wouldn't because the cop stopping the car is a preventive measure (or at least SHOULD be). I believe this is the same principle. The goal here is not to harm the freedom of the American citizens - it is to try and locate those those people hidden among the population "under the radar" and find them before its too late.

Don't you wish someone would have wondered about 19 people taking flight lessons who were only interested in learning how to take off and not how to land? ..... I know I do....

No the post that you responded to was sarcasm that you completely missed.

He wasn't serious about giving up freedoms.

Your speeding car analogy doesn't work because speeding is against the law, so you expect to get pulled over.

And yes the flight lessons were flagged and ignored, another fuck up from this administration.

But none of this has nothing to do with this scenario.