Would you be mad if you caught your lover looking at porn?

[MadelynIris]

Yolland is the smartest man on the face of the planet.

 

[dazzlingamy]

*whisper* Yolland is a woman

 

[MadelynIris]

*whisper* Yolland is a woman

Even more brilliant!

 

[Laura M]

Yes, it is definitely ok to ask a partner what they think about while they are at it and no way in hell would it be ok to say "none of your business"... of course it is their business!!!

How is it their business?

Like yolland said

obviously those fantasies aren't going to be limited to images, thoughts, or scenarios involving each other only.

Given that, I don't see why someone would ask such a thing.

 

[U2Man]

sometimes it amazes me how much people can get out of, well, nothing.

9 pages.

 

[xaviMF22]

I don't see any problem with ther checking your computer. There shouldn't be any "privacy" issues when you are a couple. As far as I see it, once you are in a stable relationship with someone (especially someone you are going to marry), then NOTHING should be kept private from that person!

As for porn - ick! My husband doesn't look at it because he knows that the thought of him looking at other women naked makes my skin crawl!!! He did have a stash of porn when we met, but it went in the bin as soon as I became aware of it.

I don't consider looking at other women naked and having a flog over them to be particularly respectful or faithful towards your partner. It just isn't something I would be happy to put up with in a relationship.

..I like some privacy thank you very much

 

[redhotswami]

There shouldn't be any "privacy" issues when you are a couple. As far as I see it, once you are in a stable relationship with someone (especially someone you are going to marry), then NOTHING should be kept private from that person!

so ya'll pee with the door open?

i totally disagree. a relationship means people are joined together, but that doesn't mean they lose sense of themselves. Since people are quoting others, I'm gonna quote one of my favorite mystic poets...who I think tells it all brilliantly

...but let there be spaces in your togetherness
and let the winds of the heavens dance between

Love one another, but make not a bond of love:
Let it rather be a mving sea between the shores of your souls.
Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.
Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.
Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,
Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music

Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping.
For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
And stand together yet not too near together:
For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow.



Anyway, I think the bigger issue here is mistrust and doubt, which I think is more harmful to a relationship than the porn. Why else would you want to go all up in someone's business unless you were looking for something to prove your doubts?

 

[U2Man]

so ya'll pee with the door open?

 

[ShellBeThere]

so ya'll pee with the door open?

i totally disagree. a relationship means people are joined together, but that doesn't mean they lose sense of themselves. Since people are quoting others, I'm gonna quote one of my favorite mystic poets...who I think tells it all brilliantly

...but let there be spaces in your togetherness
and let the winds of the heavens dance between

Love one another, but make not a bond of love:
Let it rather be a mving sea between the shores of your souls.
Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.
Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.
Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,
Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music

Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping.
For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
And stand together yet not too near together:
For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow.



Anyway, I think the bigger issue here is mistrust and doubt, which I think is more harmful to a relationship than the porn. Why else would you want to go all up in someone's business unless you were looking for something to prove your doubts?

Oh, that's lovely poem...I feel like I should know who the poet is (Khalil Gihbran it sounds like?) , but in my ignorance I don't...tell us?!

And I agree, well stated, I think the issue for MrPryk2U is more mistrust and doubt then porn necessarily...

But there is the issue of porn too being brought up, as Yolland does. I'm not quite sure I was able to digest all Yolland said lol (and what is paraphilia? love of ...?)
But I think I agree that you just have to accept certain things about the one you love.
Some things could be 'dealbreakers', like a love of being in the mafia, for instance, but for me porn wouldn't be in that category.
Though I would have, I'd hope, vigorous debates about the quality of any individual bit of it, its role in the exploitation and objectification of women (all that 'feminist' stuff that is), and he would be okay with my comments. I haven't had to deal with all this with my spouse, so I don't know how it would go for sure. He's happy with the Victoria's Secret catalog lol. I have even suggested, when they're being advertised for cheap or as a fundraiser for instance, subscriptions to Maxim-y kinda mags, or at least some with more variety in the models and bodies than the VS catalogs (god, I think I'd enjoy them too!), but he hasn't wanted them for whatever reason. I'm sure I wouldn't need to show disgust or shame him, unless he seemed to 'need' to comsume some form of porn that was, oh say, about truly harming women for instance. Then, he'd have to do that waaay out of my sight I think.

The thing about porn that I find generally 'icky' isn't about shame so much as it is about aesthetics, and the aesthetics issue isn't really even so much about exploitation or objectification or reduction of women to collections of sexual parts; it's not the 'dirty' or the cheeky-naughty I object to (that can be kinda fun), I just don't like it when it (and it doesn't always do this, nor does it have to inherently) is focused on sex-and-power issues.
I can see how some women focus on body-image issues, and I also agree with Yolland's points about that...how that ultimately is very much about one's own self-cognition and input can serve only as that, as input (your thighs are you thighs that is; it's easier to feel good about them when they're firm and proportional, but how you feel about them is, similarly, how you feel about them)

And I often pee with the door open, but expect my email to not be checked and my fantasies to be my business unless I feel like sharing...

And U2Man, how is this about 'nothing' lol? Sex and porn and privacy count as nothing to you? Are you busy with world domination, or is it drugs and rocknroll that primarily concern you?!

cheers all!

 

[anitram]

My roommate got divorced last year. They had multiple problems in their marriage but porn did play a role. He hid it from her while they dated, and she only "caught" him after they got married. Then he'd obsessively be deleting his internet files from their shared computer. He told her he was no longer watching porn, then his brother unknowingly dropped off some DVDs with my roommate. She said it wasn't so much the porn issue itself, but the fact he was willing to go to lengths to lie to her about this. It made her question what else he was dishonest about.

 

[Liesje]

^ I have friends in a similar situation. Everyone knew the guy was watching porn for several hours a day b/c another guy in the house who ran their network and servers would keep track of all the Internet traffic. I don't really care, since it's none of my business, but his fiancee (one of my best friends) is REALLY REALLY conservative and thought he was this innocent boy. I never felt it was my place to inform her that when he told her he needed to go home and study, he was watching porn. I really didn't want her to find out too late, b/c I knew it would affect her, so I brought up how this guy at the guys' house was keeping track of all the porn websites all the roommates went to. She didn't take the hint and was like "well, I know Brad would NEVER do a thing like that" so I let it go for good. She was either even more naive than I thought (if that's possible) or in denial. It has always bothered me and still does, not the porn itself, but that he lied to her everyday and would rather be watching porn for hours on end than spending time with her. They're still together so hopefully they've worked it out.

 

[redhotswami]

Oh, that's lovely poem...I feel like I should know who the poet is (Khalil Gihbran it sounds like?) , but in my ignorance I don't...tell us?!

It is! It is! You're a fan!

And I often pee with the door open, but expect my email to not be checked and my fantasies to be my business unless I feel like sharing...

I don't pee with the door open myself (I have a dog...so...kinda weird. Though I watch him pee, I don't let him watch me pee), but yeah I agree with you about stuff being your business. So then do you still feel what you said earlier in that there shouldn't be privacy issues because nothing should be kept private from the other?

 

[ShellBeThere]

It is! It is! You're a fan!



I don't pee with the door open myself (I have a dog...so...kinda weird. Though I watch him pee, I don't let him watch me pee), but yeah I agree with you about stuff being your business. So then do you still feel what you said earlier in that there shouldn't be privacy issues because nothing should be kept private from the other?

I am a fan! ...though one who knows too little, mostly quotes from books I borrowed to write my wedding vows lol.
I don't recall if I used any Gibran quotes but I should have!

I actually didn't say earlier that there shouldn't be privacy issues...
I'm a fan of privacy and the idea, as expressed so nicely in that poem, that when you become a 'couple' you don't meld into a single entity...

I'm actually the one who way upthread now revealed that I had serious issues with my spouse reading my emails, and getting upset with things he learned there that he shouldn't have been reading about in the first place because they weren't for him to see, they were buried in long letters I'd written to a friend.

and 'wow' to the stories about problems with porn that Liesje and anitram tell of. Shame and secrecy about it surely add to the whole problematic nature of it in society and in relationships. *Hours* a day?! I sort of agree with MrPryck2U's assessment that if you're looking at porn for more than 10 minutes at a time there's something "wrong" lol...

Cheers!

 

[redhotswami]

I am a fan...though one who knows too little, mostly quotes from books I borrowed to write my wedding vows lol.
I don't recall if I used any Gibran quotes but I should have!

I actually didn't say earlier that there shouldn't be privacy issues...
I'm a fan of privacy and the idea, as expressed so nicely in that poem, that when you become a 'couple' you don't meld into a single entity...

I'm actually the one who way upthread now revealed that I had serious issues with my spouse reading my emails, and getting upset with things he learned there that he shouldn't have been reading about in the first place because they weren't for him to see, they were buried in long letters I'd written to a friend.

and 'wow' to the stories about problems with porn that Liesje and anitram tell of. Shame and secrecy about it surely add to the whole problematic nature of it in society and in relationships. *Hours* a day?! I sort of agree with MrPryck2U's assessment that if you're looking at porn for more than 10 minutes at a time there's something "wrong" lol...

Cheers!

:headslap: i am so sorry!!!! i don't know how i confused you with the poster i was quoting. i thought it was weird that your stance would be COMPLETELY different.

i'm very very sorry! im usually better about that. i must be tired or something. really though, pleaase forgive me. i'm going to bed right after i post this so i don't make any more mistakes like this tonight!

Anyway, The Prophet is one of my fav books of all time! Is that one of the ones you looked at?

as for the stories mentioned above... though, lol sometimes i wish my students had more of the shame and secrecy of watching porn...especially in public computer labs. but then...maybe they watch it there to avoid sneaky significant others who explore the internet history on their computers in their rooms?

 

[ShellBeThere]

:headslap: i am so sorry!!!! i don't know how i confused you with the poster i was quoting. i thought it was weird that your stance would be COMPLETELY different.

i'm very very sorry! im usually better about that. i must be tired or something. really though, pleaase forgive me. i'm going to bed right after i post this so i don't make any more mistakes like this tonight!

Anyway, The Prophet is one of my fav books of all time! Is that one of the ones you looked at?

as for the stories mentioned above... though, lol sometimes i wish my students had more of the shame and secrecy of watching porn...especially in public computer labs. but then...maybe they watch it there to avoid sneaky significant others who explore the internet history on their computers in their rooms?

No problem at all! I just meant to clarify
I did look at The Prophet, I think. Though Gibran is quoted *often* for weddings and such, and I might have merely seen some of his most typically excerpted passages in some compilation. But now that you bring it up and share with us some of his writing, I think I will hit the library up for a copy to read again, or for the first time.

I thought typically when students log in to a university-computer they are supposed to abide by a sort of community-standards agreement, and not look at potentially 'offensive' material, so you don't have to see, even peripherally, other people's porn as it were. But, of course, it would feel a bit awkward to go around being the internet police and saying 'hey; look at the porn on your own machines!'. yeah, I don't doubt that some are more willing to have their profs and peers see their porn than risk getting 'caught' at home!

Cheers...

 

[OceanGirl]

so ya'll pee with the door open?

I do actually!

I don't agree that being honest and sharing everything with a spouse makes someone lose sense of themselves at all.

I will never understand the need for privacy within a relationship. When one half of a couple expects privacy so that they can get off on pics or videos of other people, there are going to be trust issues.

 

[maycocksean]

Hmmm, interesting thread.

I approach this topic a little differently, and I hope it doesn't come across as judgemental, especially towards Mr. Pryck who sounds like he's had a rough time and has handled it all pretty gracefully so far as I can tell.

I agree that the snooping is definitely symptomatic of some pretty serious issues and it's probably good the couple went into therapy hopefully a) to deal with the trust issues and violation of privacy, and b) to find a compromise on the issue of porn, because it would appear that Mr. P and his fiance have different sets of values on the "okayness" of porn.

In general the concept that there is "no privacy" in marriage is perhaps not the healthiest one, and approaching marriage with that mindset is bound to cause problems eventually, in my opinion. By the same token, if a spouse feels they have to keep a great deal of their lives "private", that also can damage a marriage. It's a delicate dance that works when the couple both respects each other's privacy AND chooses to be open and honest with each other. For me, there really isn't anything I "keep" from my wife. I do a keep a journal (have done so since I was eleven) and I expect my wife to respect my privacy by not reading it. As far as I know she's respected my privacy in that way, and I appreciate that. At the same time there is nothing in my journal that I feel I couldn't share with her. For me, it's just a way of maintaining my autonomy and individuality within my marriage--having something that is just for me.

Regarding the issue of pornography: Not all guys just "have" to look at pornography on a regular basis. I don't (which is not to say that I've never looked at pornography. But it's never been something that's part of my "routine".) I'm not about to judge a marriage/relationship where the husband looks at porn regularly and the wife is okay with it, but for me I couldn't feel comfortable doing that. I believe that sexuality is something that should be shared exclusively with my wife--that's rooted in my religious and moral beliefs though and I recognize others will feel differently.

Granted it's a little bit easier for me because I honestly don't find pornography to be that compelling. I mean I like seeing a naked woman as much as the next guy but I'd rather see a "real" woman rather than these cartoonish figures in the porn I've seen (I'm particularly bothered by the oversized breasts for some reason. Just doesn't do anything for me).

 

[yolland]

In general the concept that there is "no privacy" in marriage is perhaps not the healthiest one, and approaching marriage with that mindset is bound to cause problems eventually, in my opinion. By the same token, if a spouse feels they have to keep a great deal of their lives "private", that also can damage a marriage. It's a delicate dance that works when the couple both respects each other's privacy AND chooses to be open and honest with each other.

I agree with this--striking a balance with these kinds of things is a "delicate dance" and when it works, part of the reason why is because a mutual understanding already exists as to where the boundaries are. Actively and repeatedly lying to your partner is a problem, snooping around behind their back is a problem too. As you say, it's a little different when there's an agreed-upon moral rejection of porn and I would say if someone holds that particular view, then it's their responsibility to make that clear before they get into an involved intimate relationship with someone. Where it gets fuzzier is where no such categorical objection exists, because--as a quick glance through this thread reveals--there's really no going social protocol about how to draw the boundaries beyond that. Some men (and in some cases women) may prefer to tell their partner upfront and in advance that they'll be looking at porn occasionally, others may figure it's part of their sexual fantasy life and therefore their own private business just like their female partner's fantasies are her own business, and then some, aware of the fact that porn can for some women trigger unwarranted feelings of inadequacy, may opt not to talk about it or look at it when she's around for that reason. I don't think it's reasonable or fair to automatically assume any one of those responses signals a "problem." Actively lying to your partner ("Oh no, I would never look at porn!" when you do) is a problem, needing to look at it for hours daily is a problem. (And for whoever asked--'paraphilia' is a clinical term for reliance on specific objects or situations to enable sexual arousal, such that the person is unable to participate in reciprocal sexual affection without that enabler present.) But it's also possible to dig your own grave with these kinds of things, and not telling your partner in advance if you have a categorical objection to porn, or automatically assuming that of course they'd readily share it with you if they ever looked at it, then freaking out and treating it as if it were a deceitful betrayal of some (nonexistent) agreement when you 'discover' it, could well be an example of that. That's one of the things I was getting at by wondering if it's perhaps a bit too easy to 'pathologize' porn simply because it involves objects and not imagination--again, how would you feel about it if your fantasies were an open book and your male partner could rummage freely through them going "Hey! what's this guy doing in here?" or "Wait a second, none of these bodies look like mine, does this mean I'm not good enough for you?" or "Damn! Check out this action going down over here, you and I've never tried that, how come?" or "Uhhhh...whoa, you've got to be kidding me, you think this kinda thing is sexy?" Of course porn is unrealistic and objectifying--fantasy almost always is. That's not an argument against expressing any doubts or insecurities you have and expecting a respectful conversation about them, just an observation about recognizing when compromise may be reasonable and shaming the other person, not.

Admittedly, a situation like Lies described is hard to know what to say about, because that does sound pretty extreme and people who are straying into addiction territory, whether it be porn, alcohol, eating disorders or whatever, generally do try to hide it from everyone including their SOs, for reasons that go way beyond "liking my privacy just like anyone else". All I can really say is, once the two of you are living together it's very, very likely that your need to withdraw for "hours a day" is going to be noticed and questioned, and your partner would be right to regard it as a serious issue for both you and the relationship at that point.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

sometimes it amazes me how much people can get out of, well, nothing.

9 pages.

9 pages about Bono's sunglasses? Just to give one example..Isn't it ironic, don't ya think?

It's "nothing" to you, doesn't mean others aren't interested in discussing it. Other than drooling about peeing with the door open.

 

[redhotswami]

In general the concept that there is "no privacy" in marriage is perhaps not the healthiest one, and approaching marriage with that mindset is bound to cause problems eventually, in my opinion. By the same token, if a spouse feels they have to keep a great deal of their lives "private", that also can damage a marriage. It's a delicate dance that works when the couple both respects each other's privacy AND chooses to be open and honest with each other. For me, there really isn't anything I "keep" from my wife. I do a keep a journal (have done so since I was eleven) and I expect my wife to respect my privacy by not reading it. As far as I know she's respected my privacy in that way, and I appreciate that. At the same time there is nothing in my journal that I feel I couldn't share with her. For me, it's just a way of maintaining my autonomy and individuality within my marriage--having something that is just for me.

I agree with this. I think using privacy time to deliberately go behind your partner's back to do something you know he/she is objects to is just as harmful to the relationship as snooping behind your partner's back to see what they do when you're not around.

OceanGirl - I agree with you that honesty doesn't hurt a relationship. But checking up on someone like that is just as dishonest.

You can still be honest to your partner without having to disclose every single personal thing about yourself. If relationships don't leave room for some individuality, or personal space/time, then they become too consuming.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I do actually!

I don't agree that being honest and sharing everything with a spouse makes someone lose sense of themselves at all.

I will never understand the need for privacy within a relationship. When one half of a couple expects privacy so that they can get off on pics or videos of other people, there are going to be trust issues.

For me, a relationship would never work if I had to confess about everything I'm doing, thinking or whatever.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

You can still be honest to your partner without having to disclose every single personal thing about yourself. If relationships don't leave room for some individuality, or personal space/time, then they become too consuming.

I agree. I would personally find that sort of relationship suffocating, and unhealthy. And boring. I think the key is to be compatible enough to agree as much as possible on what the boundaries are in the relationship and discuss what each person would like them to be. There's a line between full disclosure and giving up self and deception- and they are two different things.

 

[U2Man]

9 pages about Bono's sunglasses? Just to give one example..Isn't it ironic, don't ya think?

It's "nothing" to you, doesn't mean others aren't interested in discussing it. Other than drooling about peeing with the door open.

well, people had fun in that thread, so it was worth all 9 pages.

please dont indicate that i was trying to get the thread closed or mocking people in here or anything. i was just wondering how people could write so many long posts about this issue.

and besides, if you cannot see the importance of bono's shades then you're not a u2 fan and shouldnt be posting here at all, mrsspringsteen

 

[OceanGirl]

You can still be honest to your partner without having to disclose every single personal thing about yourself. If relationships don't leave room for some individuality, or personal space/time, then they become too consuming.

I agree. I would personally find that sort of relationship suffocating, and unhealthy. And boring. I think the key is to be compatible enough to agree as much as possible on what the boundaries are in the relationship and discuss what each person would like them to be. There's a line between full disclosure and giving up self and deception- and they are two different things.

Just because there is honesty between a couple, does not mean that you have to disclose "every little thing" about yourself. I was not suggesting that people within a partnership don't need any time to themselves, or that they have to come home and tell each other everything that they have done or said that day. I was just saying there should be no reason to lie or keep secrets from a partner and that people should be able to freely ask their partners questions and have them answer openly and honestly.

And for what it's worth, I agree that checking up on someone is dishonest, but I don't understand why anyone would have the NEED to "check up" on someone they were planning on marrying. I would have assumed that if a couple was at a point where they were getting married, there would already be honesty and trust between them.

 

[yolland]

i was just wondering how people could write so many long posts about this issue.

If you're referring to me, I'm generally a colossal windbag anyway no matter what the issue. Online, anyhow.

 

[indra]

If you're referring to me, I'm generally a colossal windbag anyway no matter what the issue. Online, anyhow.

I like your posts. I must admit my eyes sometimes cross and once in a while will even spasm while reading them, but they are always interesting and informative.

 

[redhotswami]

If you're referring to me, I'm generally a colossal windbag anyway no matter what the issue. Online, anyhow.

I like your posts too! They can be a shimmering light of clarity amidst the confusion for me. Everytime my User CP says yolland made the last post, I'm all

 

[MrPryck2U]

To clarify, my fiancee was resting on the couch, while I was reading stuff on the internet. She wondered what I was looking at, so the next morning when I went out for a little while, she checked out my computer to see what I was looking at. That was when she discovered that a couple of days earlier, I had looked at some explicit photos posted at yahoo groups.

 

[Devlin]

You know, the guy I used to date about fell off his bed when I told him I didn't give a rat's ass about him watching porn. After all, I knew he watched it - call it basic instinct, even before he told me - and it really, seriously, didn't bother me. I actually feel totally ambivalant about it. It's interesting to watch. Most of it's deadly funny. Most of it's just Really. Bad. Acting. (I mean, we know they're gong to get it going, so why not just /do/ it already!
)

What actually annoyed the hell out of me was how he would continuously ask my permission, like I cared what he did with his free time. "Are you sure I can watch porn?"

Ehm, you're a six-foot-six, 36 year old grown man. Why would I care? He seriously couldn't believe I didn't care. I suspect he kept expecting me to girlify on him.

We actually split up for other reasons - like, he's about the most uninteresting human being on earth..brain's about at a fifteen year old's level..was much too..girly! gah. Anywho. To the question at hand!

Your fiancee has no right to dictate what you do with your free time. I'd seriously be having conversations about your right to do what you want. Her body image issues do not require you to sit there trying to alleviate them FOR her - she needs to work that out herself; no amount of you not watching porn is going to fix it. Fact is, if you so much as glance at another woman, she's going to fret.

Porn isn't degrading when all parties are of legal age and consent to it - I've never understood that whole argument against porn.

 

[Devlin]

Y'know, I somehow find it endlessly amusing that we can objectify U2's looks, write all manner of fictional stories about them, including sexual stuff, and read it, and not think it's at all objectifying, yet many posters here are offended by porn.

I'm not saying you don't have the right to be; I'm just wondering what the difference is.