Violated from a doublestandard created by society

[Spiral_Staircase]

z- sorry to hear this happened, dude. I think it's important to recognize that this is significantly different than being hit on at on the street or at a bar or something. This was you and one other person in your home, and this guy was getting explicit. That is a really freaky situation. And you're right that this does happen to other guys. Two of my good friends have found themselves in very similar situations. One friend it happened at his own apartment, almost the exact situation you were in. The other was a friend who had gone to another guys place, he thought just to hang out. This guy had other ideas. It really freaked him out and he didn't tell me about it til 2 years later. Anyway, it sucks that this stuff happens to men and women. Unfortunately, it seems like this kind of thing, happening to men or women, goes unpunished most of the time. If something like this happened at work, something could probably be done about it. But in someone's home, if it's only words that are exchanged, I think nothing gets done about it, regardless of the gender or sexual orientation of the offender.

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by z edge:
[B
1. If a guy like me were to do the same thing to a girl (tell her I want her to strip for me and give her oral pleasure) under these same circumstances then I would be in fucking jail and probably be facing criminal charges or daddy's shotgun or something.
[/B]

This is not true at all, my friend. As Fizzing said, "I think you overestimate the seriousness with which men sexually harassing women is treated." Rarely would anyone face charges for aggressively hitting on anyone else. Rape is not even taken seriously in this country, let alone hitting on somebody. According to the 2000 National Crime Victimization Survey, Bureau of Justice Statistics, only 1 in 20 actual rapists will ever spend a day in jail. The other 19 are back on the streets.

I am sorry this happened to you and you have a right to feel violated. But I also agree with Melon and the others...this happens to women everyday. One in six women (about 17.7 million women) in this country are sexually assaulted at some time in their life. The stat for men is about 3% (2.78 million men). Very, very little is done about it.

I have never, ever been hit on by a woman in my entire life though I have as many lesbian friends as straight friends--maybe more even--whereas I am hit on or verbally assaulted almost everyday by a man.

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
z- sorry to hear this happened, dude. I think it's important to recognize that this is significantly different than being hit on at on the street or at a bar or something. This was you and one other person in your home, and this guy was getting explicit.

Four out of ten sexual assaults take place in the victim's home. Approximately 62% of female victims know their assailant. I don't know what the stats are for men, but the point being, most sexual assaults happen at home with someone you know.

[Spiral_Staircase]

joyfulgirl, I hope you didn't think I was trying to say that this situation was unique because it happened in his home. I was just trying to make the point that this situation would likely have a bigger effect on someone than a situation where you're hit on by someone passing you on the street or at a party or bar. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but that's what I was trying to say.

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
joyfulgirl, I hope you didn't think I was trying to say that this situation was unique because it happened in his home. I was just trying to make the point that this situation would likely have a bigger effect on someone than a situation where you're hit on by someone passing you on the street or at a party or bar. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but that's what I was trying to say.

Yes, I understand and I agree with you--I wasn't criticizing your post at all, just pointing out that, in fact, most sexual assaults do occur in one's home, for whatever that's worth here. I just find it interesting, I guess, when I see a statistic validated, although I wish all the sexual assault stats were wrong because they are so depressing.

[edit] I also want to add that I'm not saying that z edge was sexually assaulted according to whatever the legal definition of that is, but he felt violated and that's why I'm using sexual assault stats--because we don't really have stats for what happened to z edge, but what we do have demonstrates that there is something terribly wrong in this country regarding sexuality, sex crimes, how sex crimes are treated, etc.[/edit]

[This message has been edited by joyfulgirl (edited 04-04-2002).]

[Diamond The U2 Patriot]

Z Edge-
I love you like a brother but this is a tiny bit funny.
Be good.
Next time try not to look so sexy for a freak-jk.

Diamond

[Salome]

Originally posted by U2Bama:
No means no.

I like short replies like this one


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Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it

[Gina Marie]

Normally I would just ignore what you said Diamond-but there is nothing remotely 'funny' about this.

I figured sooner or later someone would make a comment like that. Sorry, but your attempt at 'humor' is not, in my opinion, appropriate.

[Spiral_Staircase]

Originally posted by joyfulgirl:
Yes, I understand and I agree with you--I wasn't criticizing your post at all, just pointing out that, in fact, most sexual assaults do occur in one's home, for whatever that's worth here. I just find it interesting, I guess, when I see a statistic validated, although I wish all the sexual assault stats were wrong because they are so depressing.

[edit] I also want to add that I'm not saying that z edge was sexually assaulted according to whatever the legal definition of that is, but he felt violated and that's why I'm using sexual assault stats--because we don't really have stats for what happened to z edge, but what we do have demonstrates that there is something terribly wrong in this country regarding sexuality, sex crimes, how sex crimes are treated, etc.[/edit]

[This message has been edited by joyfulgirl (edited 04-04-2002).]

[oliveu2cm]

Originally posted by Diamond The U2 Patriot:
Ive silently said to myself precisely what Melon said re-(overly aggresive men hitting on women to a fault)..
"Oh so this is how it must feel to be an attractive woman,".-bearing in mind that they get hit on 20 times a week and us not to often and very very inoften by a clueless gay man.

I just wanted to clarify this is not true at all. A woman being attractive makes NO difference to the amount they recieve unwanted attention. Being a woman is enough reason to be hit on by any drunk or obnoxious boy/man who thinks he was born with a pass in his hand that lets him get away with shit, doesn't matter what you're wearing, how tall short you are, what your bra shoe shirt skirt size is.

z edge- sorry this happened to you. What an uncomfortable, unnecessary, and unacceptable position for him to put you in. The fact that things like this go unchallenged gives these people more confidence/assertion to do it again. You handled it well- telling him straight out you were NOT comfortable with this, and it was NOT acceptable to you, which is what anyone should do.


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She never really belonged to me

U2 Take Me Higher

[Diamond The U2 Patriot]

Gina Marie-
I dont think this will damage mine and ZEdge's relationship.
Olive-
Good pt.

Diamond

[This message has been edited by Diamond The U2 Patriot (edited 04-04-2002).]

[z edge]

Originally posted by speedracer:
Lilly, if you're going to continue to post in this thread, you probably should change your sig...

LOL, and her "from" to

[melon]

Allow me to elaborate further, as I really have thought this out a lot over the years...

Humans--gay, straight, male, female, black, white, young, old, etc.--are constantly inundated with cultural constructs as to what you are *supposed* to be; hence, stereotypes. We hate stereotypes; we'll march up and down, left and right, and scream at the top of our lungs as to how much we hate them. Yet, what has happened? I see so many walking stereotypes that it makes me sick.

The stereotype, in essence, formulates how we think we are supposed to be as we are growing up. Right now, I'm sure we all have preconceived notions of what we are supposed to be at certain ages (i.e., "A middle-aged father who is not supposed to be affectionate to his children; that's the mother's job"), not to mention revisionist stereotypes of what was ("I want to look '80s,' so I'm going to dye my hair blonde"). Sadly enough, *much* (but not all) of humanity has a very hard time shaking these preconceived notions, most of which we pick up from the media.

Let's look at classic films, for instance. You have a 2 hour film. What happens in it? You have your strong, stoic male who is in control of everything and everyone around him at all times. Sure, during the plot twists, he might stumble, but, by the end, he's got even more power under his belt. Then you meet the woman--thin, beautiful, dumb, and clueless--she is literally lost without the strong male influence.

So what is the progression of the classic film romance (which still persists today)? Man meets woman. She's a bit sassy and resistant, but in a teasing fashion. Man *persists.* She's still sassy, but she puts up less resistance. Man *persists.* She's annoyed, but, suddenly, she's kissing him. Man *persists.* By the end of the film, he's having sex with her, living happily ever after, all of which is in a two-hour time frame. It is that *persistance* that is the problem. In film, *no* rarely ever means *no.* It really turns into *yes.*

To make this argument applicable to z edge's incident, the gay guy is living off that misogynist male film hero stereotype, but translating it to a gay scenario. Add that to the stereotype that gay men are all about hedonistic sex and endless partying--in essence, nothing serious and stable--and he is buying into that as well. Everything from the "straight jocks," "locker room," etc. is him living out stereotypical fantasies.

My overall belief is that stereotypes are just that in the beginning--a general falsehood riddled with bigotry. However, the longer the stereotype exists, the more that generations grow up thinking that that is what they *have to* be. Gays, in particular, are in a very dreadful situation societally. No positive media role models. Little family and societal support. Surrounded by hostility, effeminate stereotypes, lush stereotypes, etc. The same is with minorities: blacks and Mexicans with gang and ghetto stereotypes. Yet, look at rap music? Supposed "positive role models" who fulfill every last stereotype in their personas to, supposedly, "be real."

You know all the stereotypes, really, and, sadly, I fear we are losing generations of otherwise wonderful people to deep-seated bigotry that most of us, unless we ever do the research, will never know *why* these stereotypes ever came about. Instead, we will, blindly, accept them as to what we are supposed to be.

Do I make any sense?

Melon

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"Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work." - Hanif Kureishi, Intimacy

[z edge]

Originally posted by Gina Marie:
Normally I would just ignore what you said Diamond-but there is nothing remotely 'funny' about this.

I figured sooner or later someone would make a comment like that. Sorry, but your attempt at 'humor' is not, in my opinion, appropriate.

GM,
It's okay, thanx for defending me but its alright. It's really okay now, not the end of the world or anything. I feel better now that a couple of days have passed, and much better to have gotten it off my chest in here. I was just freaked out right after it happened but that dosen't mean I am going to be traumatized or anything.

I should add, I've been to the gay bar with some friends and (yes a lot of straight people go there too) had several guys come up and hit on me, even had my butt pinched by one. Rather than going crazy I just reminded myself where I was and politely let them know I am straight. After that, I had some great conversations with a couple of the guys as I would any other guy.

Thats a far cry from what happened in my house though, but it's okay to joke about my incident now. I wouldn't joke about any of the other points brought up in here or statistics about other people, however.

[z edge]

Originally posted by Diamond The U2 Patriot:
Gina Marie-
I dont think this will damage mine and ZEdge's relationship.

[This message has been edited by Diamond The U2 Patriot (edited 04-04-2002).]

It's all good D69, your joke was kinda funny too. I won't let it bother me or our friendship.

However, I might be careful about letting you in my house late at night

[Gina Marie]

Originally posted by z edge:

It's okay, thanx for defending me but its alright. It's really okay now, not the end of the world or anything. I feel better now that a couple of days have passed, and much better to have gotten it off my chest in here.

I should add, I've been to the gay bar with some friends and (yes a lot of straight people go there too) had several guys come up and hit on me, even had my butt pinched by one. Rather than going crazy I just reminded myself where I was and politely let them know I am straight. After that, I had some great conversations with a couple of the guys as I would any other guy.

OK, if you're OK with Diamond's comments, that's fine with me

I just think it must be very awkward and uncomfortable to have to see this person again. I don't know-the behavior of people like that just boggles my mind. I don't deal w/ it as well as you do. I've had a few things happen to me that I wouldn't talk about, so I applaud you for posting this here.

And I didn't mean in any of my comments that you are in any way homophobic, because it's obvious you're not.

And *lol* what you said to Diamond-I'd feel the same way.

[z edge]

Originally posted by melon:
.

Do I make any sense?

Melon

Yes you make sense, great post. Your posts usually do make good sense when you're not talking about politics

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by Salome:
I like short replies like this one

If z edge says no, then it's rape.



[This message has been edited by U2Bama (edited 04-04-2002).]

[Lilly]

Originally posted by z edge:

LOL, and her "from" to

....yea, I always think whether I should include my sig in FYM posts, 'cos it's so easily misconstrueable. My friend said it to me before I went into a job interview earlier this week. And, on second thought, my 'from' is a bit....uhm....suggestive?
Yea, but it IS where I'm from for now....



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"Just tell 'em what they wanna hear & nobody will complain."

[TheU2]

I was in a bar and I heard this guy behind me talking in this feminine voice. As I was listening, I thought to myself, "Self, is there such a thing as a gay voice?"

CK