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Old 09-29-2005, 01:24 PM   #1
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US “does not surrender to blackmail"

good for the U S

no surrender

"Bring it on"

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Judge orders release of Abu Ghraib prison pictures
29/09/2005 - 18:22:27

Saying the US “does not surrender to blackmail,” a judge in New York ruled today that pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America’s image.

US District Judge Alvin Hellerstein ordered the release of certain pictures in a 50-page decision that said terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan have proven they “do not need pretexts for their barbarism.”

The American Civil Liberties Union has sought the release of 87 photographs and four videotapes from Abu Ghraib as part of an October 2003 lawsuit demanding information on the treatment of detainees in US custody and the transfer of prisoners to countries known to use torture. The ACLU contends that prisoner abuse is systemic.

Several brutal images of the abuse at the prison have already been widely distributed, but the lawsuit covers additional photos not yet seen by the public.

The judge said: “Our nation does not surrender to blackmail, and fear of blackmail is not a legally sufficient argument to prevent us from performing a statutory command.

“Indeed, the freedoms that we champion are as important to our success in Iraq and Afghanistan as the guns and missiles with which our troops are armed.”

Hellerstein said he had great respect for the arguments of General Richard Myers, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, who maintained in court papers that releasing the photographs would aid al Qaida recruitment, weaken the Afghan and Iraqi governments and incite riots against US troops.

“My task is not to defer to our worst fears, but to interpret and apply the law, in this case, the Freedom of Information Act, which advances values important to our society, transparency and accountability in government,” Hellerstein said.

“The fight to extend freedom has never been easy, and we are once again challenged, in Iraq and Afghanistan, by terrorists who engage in violence to intimidate our will and to force us to retreat.

“Our struggle to prevail must be without sacrificing the transparency and accountability of government and military officials,” he added.

The US Attorney’s office in Manhattan, which argued the case for the government, did not immediately have a comment on the ruling.
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Old 09-29-2005, 01:29 PM   #2
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you know, deep, this is exactly what the terrorists want ...

when you question our leaders and their tactics, the insurgents win.

we all know that this was just some frat house hazing, and done by a few bad apples. i mean, fox news tells us so!
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Old 09-29-2005, 03:37 PM   #3
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"The ACLU contends that prisoner abuse is systemic."

When I heard journalist Robert Fisk speak last week, he more or less indicated the same thing and he's seen first hand more of what's happening in Iraq than just about any other journalist. He is one of the few journalists who still actually walks the streets of Iraq--never alone, never for long, and never without his Iraqi friends accompanying him--but most other journalists will not leave their hotels/compounds/fortresses (nor should they). He said that at this point Iraq is the most dangerous war any journalist has ever covered, he doesn't know if he's going to return or not, and that if anyone in Washington had seen what he's seen they would never ever ever wage war for any reason ever again. His words were among the most powerful I've heard on the subject to date--so much so that the audience of 1000 people were in tears and I haven't even known what to say about it here. I'm hoping a transcript of the talk will emerge so that I can post it.
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Old 09-29-2005, 03:45 PM   #4
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http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ea..._id=1001218842

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In the same period, reporter Seymour Hersh, who helped uncover the scandal, said in a speech before an ACLU convention: "Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok? Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men ... . The women were passing messages saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened.'

"Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it's going to come out."
There is no emoticon for what I feel.
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Old 09-29-2005, 03:58 PM   #5
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Oh my God.
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Old 09-29-2005, 06:44 PM   #6
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It's a shame how unprofessional our military has become. We can teach them how to shoot, but we can't teach them how to be decent human beings when they're not shooting?

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Old 09-29-2005, 06:52 PM   #7
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This is disturbing and scary as heck at the same time.
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Old 09-30-2005, 02:40 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
you know, deep, this is exactly what the terrorists want ...

when you question our leaders and their tactics, the insurgents win.

we all know that this was just some frat house hazing, and done by a few bad apples. i mean, fox news tells us so!
Sorry, but I do not think this is the truth, especially knowing that torture is a thing that was made almost evry where, not only from US soldiers, but also from the ones coming from other Countries.
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Old 09-30-2005, 02:45 AM   #9
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And I think that every citizen has got the right to criticize his/her leaders and tactics, especially when there the suspicion that there's something wrong there!
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Old 09-30-2005, 06:57 AM   #10
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please. everyone just calm down and wait until george bush tells us the truth about what happened.
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Old 09-30-2005, 08:09 AM   #11
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Originally posted by lady luck Sorry, but I do not think this is the truth, especially knowing that torture is a thing that was made almost evry where, not only from US soldiers, but also from the ones coming from other Countries.
I'm willing to bet that Irvine's words were meant to be taken as heavy sarcasm.
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Old 09-30-2005, 09:06 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4


I'm willing to bet that Irvine's words were meant to be taken as heavy sarcasm.


yes.

HEAVY sarcasm.
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Old 09-30-2005, 04:45 PM   #13
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so I beg your pardon, Irvine511

didn't mean to bother you...
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Old 09-30-2005, 04:47 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by lady luck
so I beg your pardon, Irvine511

didn't mean to bother you...


no worries.

all to do with the nature of the forum.
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Old 10-01-2005, 01:07 AM   #15
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If we don't look at ourselves, we have no right to look at others.
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Old 10-01-2005, 01:31 AM   #16
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sometimes i think a army is the reflection of the society it defends.
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Old 10-01-2005, 02:09 AM   #17
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Of course they are, rono. That cant be used as a criticism though. Armies are filled with ordinary people. Like all countries, there's good and bad people making up that country.
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Old 10-01-2005, 05:40 PM   #18
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Last night at their concert, Coldplay stated that the men and women serving in the military in Iraq are Heroes and dedicated a song from their new album to them. Their right and its great to see them and others show this respect which is usually lacking from the media and is completely absent from many groups on the left.

Everyday, the US and coalition military forces risk their lives to make Iraq and Afghanistan better places for the people who live there. The small number of prison abuse incidents in Iraq pale in comparison to the thousands of Iraqi troops, citizens, and yes even terrorist, who's lives have been saved or protected by the US and coalition military at various times over the past 2 and half years.

You can find bad apples in any organization or group in the world, and its sad when certain groups use that to paint everyone in those groups as being the same.
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Old 10-01-2005, 09:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Last night at their concert, Coldplay stated that the men and women serving in the military in Iraq are Heroes and dedicated a song from their new album to them. Their right and its great to see them and others show this respect which is usually lacking from the media and is completely absent from many groups on the left.

Everyday, the US and coalition military forces risk their lives to make Iraq and Afghanistan better places for the people who live there. The small number of prison abuse incidents in Iraq pale in comparison to the thousands of Iraqi troops, citizens, and yes even terrorist, who's lives have been saved or protected by the US and coalition military at various times over the past 2 and half years.

You can find bad apples in any organization or group in the world, and its sad when certain groups use that to paint everyone in those groups as being the same.


i'd like to think this were true.

but reality is that the torture problem is not the result of a few bad apples; it is systemic, and it flows from the top down -- there has been a deliberate obfuscation of the definition of torture in order to enable it's practice. it starts at Rumsfeld.

check out my (largely ignored) thread on Cpt. Ian Fishback.

and it stuns me that they pinned this on some silly woman.
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Old 10-02-2005, 04:12 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




i'd like to think this were true.

but reality is that the torture problem is not the result of a few bad apples; it is systemic, and it flows from the top down -- there has been a deliberate obfuscation of the definition of torture in order to enable it's practice. it starts at Rumsfeld.

check out my (largely ignored) thread on Cpt. Ian Fishback.

and it stuns me that they pinned this on some silly woman.
I do not think many on the left would want to think that is true. Instead its better to go fishing for people like Captain Ian Fishback in order to find problems and trouble that can be used politically to damage the effort in Iraq as well as effect things politically in Washington. There are thousands of Captains with service in Iraq and Afghanistan who have different views on the situation than Captain Ian Fishback, including my friends. While there may be questions about certain standards, nothing Captain Ian Fishback described seeing would be examples of a systemic problem of torture.

The reality is that Iraqi soldiers during the initial invasion, and insurgents and terrorist afterwards get the best medical treatment on the planet for any of their wounds if they are captured by coalition forces. If they become sick, they also get world class treatment. My best friend flew combat escort for a prisoner at Abu Graib who needed an organ transplant. The terrorist love to try and shoot down medical helicopters so my best friend went along in is Cobra Attack Helicopter to insure the terrorist would pay if they made such an attempt. But don't expect many on the left to mention the fact that US military personal in Iraq risk their lives to insure that captured terrorist get the best medical treatment on the planet.
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