US 2008 Presidential Campaign/Debate Discussion Thread #6

[yolland]

They're too long to post, but the New York Times has full transcripts of Obama's speeches and subsequent question-and-answer sessions in Amman and Sderot.

Amman

Sderot

[Irvine511]

McCain denies he misstated timing of Iraq surge
By TOM RAUM, Associated Press Writer

Republican John McCain pushed back on Tuesday against Democratic criticism that he misstated the troop buildup ordered by President Bush began, saying elements were put in place before Bush announced the strategy in early 2007.

He told reporters during an unscheduled stop in a super market that, what the Bush administration calls "the surge" was actually "made up of a number of components," some of which began before the president's order for more troops.

It's all a matter of semantics, he suggested.

McCain said Army Col. Sean MacFarland started carrying out elements of a new counterinsurgency strategy as early as December 2006.

At issue are McCain's comments in a Tuesday interview with CBS. The Arizona senator disputed Democrat Barack Obama's contention that a Sunni revolt against al-Qaida combined with the dispatch of thousands more U.S. combat troops to Iraq to produce the improved security situation there. McCain called that a "false depiction."

Democrats jumped on his comments. They said McCain's remarks showed he was out of touch, because the rebellion of U.S.-backed Sunni sheiks against al-Qaida terrorists in Iraq's Anbar province was under way well before Bush announced in January 2007 his decision to send 30,000 additional U.S. troops to Iraq.

McCain asserted he knew that and didn't commit a gaffe. "A surge is really a counterinsurgency made up of a number of components. ... I'm not sure people understand that `surge' is part of a counterinsurgency."

Speaking on CBS Tuesday of a Sunni sheik who approached Col. MacFarland, McCain said, "Because of the surge, we were able to go out and protect that sheik and others. And it began the Anbar awakening."

On Wednesday McCain continued to try to portray his opponent as naive on Iraq while the Illinois Democrat is visiting the war zone, the Middle East and Europe.

"I am again deeply disappointed that Sen. Obama will not recognize that the surge has succeeded," McCain said. He said that "no rational person" could think otherwise.

McCain said he had been briefed by Col. MacFarland, commander of 1st Brigade, 1st Armored Division, in December 2006 to discuss the strategy that remains in force today. Bush announced the surge in January 2007 and the first of the new troops began arriving in Iraq in March 2007.

McCain made an unscheduled stop at "Kings Supermarket" in a shopping mall here, and greeted shoppers and commiserated with them on the soaring costs of both food and fuel.

"Among other challenges, Americans face the price of milk at over $4 a gallon," McCain told reporters as he stood in front of a dairy case.

is this a pattern? or is "the surge" whatever we want to call anything that hasn't been a disaster? we are now to credit *everything* that happened to the influx of 30,000 more troops, even before they got there, lest we disrespect our brave men and women in uniform?

[yolland]

Random off-topic question: is anyone else besides me bothered by the fact that it's no longer possible to quote-box text from another website (like an article or blog) within your post without having it automatically italicized? I've always liked having the option to visually distinguish such things by putting them in a quote box, but I find that having everything in italics slows down my reading speed to an annoying degree.

I ask because if others besides me are bothered by this, I can see if anything can be done about it (though that may not be possible), but I don't want to make a big deal out of it if it's just me whining. FYM has far more sourced-from-elsewhere text in it than the other forums, so I figured if it were a problem anywhere, it'd be here.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

is this a pattern? or is "the surge" whatever we want to call anything that hasn't been a disaster? we are now to credit *everything* that happened to the influx of 30,000 more troops, even before they got there, lest we disrespect our brave men and women in uniform?

It's all SEMANTICS.

He clearly said that the surge BEGAN the awakening, which I could have bought as another gaffe. The fact is reiterating him makes him either a liar or a deluded old fool.

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by deep

and the good judgment thing - a myth?

Well, there's good judgement and perfect judgement. . .I think you're expecting the latter.

But nonetheless, I still think his judgement is sound. As I said, Irvine has made a good case for why the surge while having some postiive results is not the sole reason for the improved situation for Iraq and thus has argued that one can still maintian one would have still been against the surge even while acknowledging some benefits from it. So now I don't think Obama's opposition to the surge is because of "bad judgement." Supposing all the other factors Irvine mentioned hadnt' been in play as well. Would the surge have been as successful? We can't know the answer to that, but it's perhaps a little simplistic to attribute every good thing to the surge.

At any rate, none of this sounds good on TV and so Obama is left with the difficult options in front of him as to how to explain his views on the campaign trail. If you want to debate his judgement perhaps you might consider whether his decision to stick with his original opinion on the surge is a good political decision or if the "I was wrong" choice would have been better.

[deep]

I have no idea who put up that Obama sticker.
I hope it was done by someone without any association with the Obama team.


It looks really tacky.

[BVS]

My first guess: photoshopped

Both signs have the exact same curl in the corner. Same writing above. And the colors on the left banner seemed altered.

And then if you bring this image into an editing software and do a quick contrast, you can see some pixels on the left banner are obviously manipulated.

[anitram]

They interviewed a guy on TV who had one of those signs and he seemed to be an Obama supporter (by his accent I'd guess Israeli-born). It didn't sound like anything official.

This is a nice photo:

[deep]

Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar

My first guess: photoshopped

Well, let's look a little closer










See all the Obama flags here:

http://www.barackobama.com/people/

this is kind of freaky

more of a divider than a uniter ?

[Diemen]

Grasping at straws, deep?

[indra]

Originally Posted by yolland

Random off-topic question: is anyone else besides me bothered by the fact that it's no longer possible to quote-box text from another website (like an article or blog) within your post without having it automatically italicized? I've always liked having the option to visually distinguish such things by putting them in a quote box, but I find that having everything in italics slows down my reading speed to an annoying degree.

I ask because if others besides me are bothered by this, I can see if anything can be done about it (though that may not be possible), but I don't want to make a big deal out of it if it's just me whining. FYM has far more sourced-from-elsewhere text in it than the other forums, so I figured if it were a problem anywhere, it'd be here.

Yeah it bugs me. I like italics for emphasis occasionally, but find it hard on my eyes (never the best in the first place) to read large amounts of it.

[Vincent Vega]

Originally Posted by yolland

Random off-topic question: is anyone else besides me bothered by the fact that it's no longer possible to quote-box text from another website (like an article or blog) within your post without having it automatically italicized? I've always liked having the option to visually distinguish such things by putting them in a quote box, but I find that having everything in italics slows down my reading speed to an annoying degree.

I ask because if others besides me are bothered by this, I can see if anything can be done about it (though that may not be possible), but I don't want to make a big deal out of it if it's just me whining. FYM has far more sourced-from-elsewhere text in it than the other forums, so I figured if it were a problem anywhere, it'd be here.

Reading English I'm sometimes annoyingly slow anyways, but yeah it could well be that everything written in italics slows me down even further. Might be helpful if it was in normal text, so that one could also italicize himself.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by yolland

Random off-topic question: is anyone else besides me bothered by the fact that it's no longer possible to quote-box text from another website (like an article or blog) within your post without having it automatically italicized? I've always liked having the option to visually distinguish such things by putting them in a quote box, but I find that having everything in italics slows down my reading speed to an annoying degree.

i'm bothered.

[U2democrat]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

i'm bothered.

Me too


Speech in Berlin at 1:30pm ET...Deutschland Deutschland uber alles!

[2861U2]

Looks like even the other hosts at MSNBC have had enough of Olbermann ignoring the facts...

Olbermann Watch - MSNBC's Countdown with Keith Olbermann: Gibson Congratulates Scarborough: "Somebody Finally Said It"

[anitram]

^

Olbermann, as far as I understand it, is not actually running a presidential campaign, so really what he says matters about as much as what anybody else on TV says, whatever network they're on.

[anitram]

I have to say that it warms my heart to see people abroad waving American flags again. There is an opportunity for a different kind of global politics after the last 8 years and I can only hope that Americans embrace it in November.

[2861U2]

Originally Posted by anitram

^

Olbermann, as far as I understand it, is not actually running a presidential campaign, so really what he says matters about as much as what anybody else on TV says, whatever network they're on.

No. Olbermann distorts the truth and is more dishonest than anyone I have ever seen in the news business. It matters when people watch his show to get election information, and it's so blatantly one-sided.

[U2democrat]

Originally Posted by anitram

I have to say that it warms my heart to see people abroad waving American flags again. There is an opportunity for a different kind of global politics after the last 8 years and I can only hope that Americans embrace it in November.

I was thinking the same thing. The image of Europeans excited about America and waving American flags rather than using them in protest is a stark contrast against what we've been seeing the last 8 years, and it's such a wonderful feeling.

[MrsSpringsteen]

I don't watch Keith Olbermann for any information. I think he's just as obnoxious as O'Reilly and when I see him I change the channel I don't consider him to be a news person, he's a commentator like O'Reilly is.