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Old 06-24-2008, 03:29 PM   #261
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Does any dispute the fact that a terrorist attack would cripple our already damaged economy?
Of course no one disputes that. But I guess it's a good thing all Republicans think alike.

But do you really think that's the gravest long-term threat to our economy? 9-11 wasn't even a long-term threat to our economy. I thought this war was working, according to Republicans this war is working. If that's the case why would an attack on US soil even be a concern?
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Old 06-24-2008, 04:46 PM   #262
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Actually, most people know that this Newsweek poll is far off the mark. The last time someone won by more than 15 percentage points was in 1984 when Reagan won re-election.




[q]Obama holds 12-point lead over McCain, poll finds

A Times/Bloomberg Poll says that in a two-man contest, 49% of respondents favor Barack Obama, while 37% support John McCain. With Ralph Nader and Bob Barr added to the mix, Obama holds 15-point edge.
By Doyle McManus
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

2:00 PM PDT, June 24, 2008

WASHINGTON -- — Buoyed by enthusiasm among Democrats and public concern over the economy, Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) has captured a sizable lead over Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) at the opening of the general election campaign for president, the Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg Poll has found.

In a two-man race between the major party candidates, registered voters chose Obama over McCain by 49% to 37% in the national poll conducted last weekend.

On a four-man ballot including independent candidate Ralph Nader and Libertarian Bob Barr, voters chose Obama over McCain by an even larger margin, 48% to 33%.

Obama's advantage, bigger in this poll than in most other national surveys, appears to stem in large part from his positions on domestic issues. Both Democrats and independent voters say Obama would do a better job than McCain at handling the nation's economic problems, the public's top concern.

In contrast, many voters give McCain credit as the more experienced candidate and the one best equipped to protect the nation against terrorism -- but they rank those concerns below their worries about the economy.

Moreover, McCain suffers from a pronounced "enthusiasm gap," especially among the conservatives who usually give Republican candidates a reliable base of support. Among voters who describe themselves as conservative, only 58% say they will vote for McCain; 15% say they will vote for Obama, 14% say they will vote for someone else, and 13% say they are undecided.

By contrast, 79% of voters who describe themselves as liberal say they plan to vote for Obama.

Even among voters who say they do plan to vote for McCain, more than half say they are "not enthusiastic" about their chosen candidate; only 45% say they are enthusiastic. By contrast, 81% of Obama voters say they are enthusiastic, and almost half call themselves "very enthusiastic," a level of zeal that only 13% of McCain's supporters display.[/q]








and there was this little nugget:

[q]The survey found public approval of President Bush's job performance at a new low for the Times/Bloomberg Poll: only 23% approved of the job Bush is doing, and 73% disapproved.[/q]
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:12 PM   #263
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Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., speaks during a meeting of Democratic Governors at the Chicago History Museum in Chicago Friday, June 20, 2008. A new seal debuted on Obama's podium Friday, sporting iconography used in the U.S. presidential seal, the blue background, the eagle clutching arrows on left and olive branch on right, but with symbolic differences. Instead of the Latin 'E pluribus unum' (Out of many, one), Obama's says 'Vero possumus', rough Latin for 'Yes, we can.' Instead of 'Seal of the President of the United States', Obama's Web site address is listed. And instead of a shield, Obama's eagle wears his 'O' campaign logo with a rising sun representing hope ahead.
I asked if this was a hoax?

It is really silly, and shows poor judgment.

I might expect this on the cartoon network.



Maybe Obama hired the "Mission Accomplished" team?

Quote:

Barack Obama appears with personalized presidential seal

BY Michael Saul and Celeste Katz
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS



Barack Obama introduced his own take on the presidential seal on Friday.

Yes, he can. But, really: Oh, no, he didn't!

Barack Obama's presidential campaign raised eyebrows and elicited snickers Friday when it unveiled the Obamamania version of the presidential seal.

At a meeting with Democratic governors in Chicago, Obama sat behind a rostrum with a seal that looked not-so-coincidentally like the official seal of the President of the United States.

Featuring an eagle clutching arrows and an olive branch, the seal contained a Latin phrase for a touch of gravitas that roughly translates to "Yes, We Can."

Asked to explain the new seal, Obama spokeswoman Jen Psaki said, "It's a mix of presidential politics and a call for hope and change."

Snarked John McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds, "I think we can all agree that we need presidential candidates that are serious enough not to play make-believe on the campaign trail."

"It's laughable, ridiculous, preposterous and revealing all at the same time," Bounds said.


Bets are in that the faux presidential seal which Sen. Barack Obama rolled out last week already has secured an early retirement, with the campaign facing more ridicule than the rostrum décor is worth.

"The Audacity of Hype,'' they called it at ABC News, as our friends at the Top of the Ticket note in citing the ribbing that Camp Obama has taken for its "Obama for America'' seal.

They also note Marc Ambinder's intelligence today at Atlantic.com:

"I'm told that Obama recognizes that it was a silly mistake, that the universal reaction at Wacker and Michigan was, 'Boy, was that dumb,' and that they don't think the seal staging will matter to actual voters.''

More bone-headed mistakes?
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:37 PM   #264
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Your speech is full of such hyperbole it's hard to take anything you say seriously anymore, deep.
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Old 06-24-2008, 08:28 PM   #265
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[q]Obama holds 12-point lead over McCain, poll finds

A Times/Bloomberg Poll says that in a two-man contest, 49% of respondents favor Barack Obama, while 37% support John McCain. With Ralph Nader and Bob Barr added to the mix, Obama holds 15-point edge.
By Doyle McManus
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

2:00 PM PDT, June 24, 2008

WASHINGTON -- — Buoyed by enthusiasm among Democrats and public concern over the economy, Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) has captured a sizable lead over Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) at the opening of the general election campaign for president, the Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg Poll has found.

In a two-man race between the major party candidates, registered voters chose Obama over McCain by 49% to 37% in the national poll conducted last weekend.

On a four-man ballot including independent candidate Ralph Nader and Libertarian Bob Barr, voters chose Obama over McCain by an even larger margin, 48% to 33%.

Obama's advantage, bigger in this poll than in most other national surveys, appears to stem in large part from his positions on domestic issues. Both Democrats and independent voters say Obama would do a better job than McCain at handling the nation's economic problems, the public's top concern.

In contrast, many voters give McCain credit as the more experienced candidate and the one best equipped to protect the nation against terrorism -- but they rank those concerns below their worries about the economy.

Moreover, McCain suffers from a pronounced "enthusiasm gap," especially among the conservatives who usually give Republican candidates a reliable base of support. Among voters who describe themselves as conservative, only 58% say they will vote for McCain; 15% say they will vote for Obama, 14% say they will vote for someone else, and 13% say they are undecided.

By contrast, 79% of voters who describe themselves as liberal say they plan to vote for Obama.

Even among voters who say they do plan to vote for McCain, more than half say they are "not enthusiastic" about their chosen candidate; only 45% say they are enthusiastic. By contrast, 81% of Obama voters say they are enthusiastic, and almost half call themselves "very enthusiastic," a level of zeal that only 13% of McCain's supporters display.[/q]








and there was this little nugget:

[q]The survey found public approval of President Bush's job performance at a new low for the Times/Bloomberg Poll: only 23% approved of the job Bush is doing, and 73% disapproved.[/q]

When looking at polls, you need to go with the polling company that has been doing this thing the longest and was closest in predicting the 2004 election results:

Gallup Daily: Obama Holds Slight Edge, 46% vs. 43%

Unless McCain falls behind 12 to 15 points in their poll, its unlikely to happen on election day. Historically, the polls tighten as you get closer to election day, and the most accurate poll is already essentially a tie when it comes to this race.
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Old 06-24-2008, 08:44 PM   #266
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you still don't know anything. no one knows anything. it's only fools who wish they knew more than they did who are swallowing every sensationalistic storyline about a perceived horse race.

Newsweek had them tied in May. Gallup currently has Obama up 50 to 44.

but what matters, at this stage in the game, is not the national polls, nor even so much the polls in the swing states.

what matters, as U2democrat has accurately pointed out, is the overall feeling towards about the current direction of the country, and that's at it's lowest since the end of the Carter administration. also, 55% now identify as Democrats whereas only 36% identify as Republicans, and you can bet that a large portion of that 55% are young voters. so the future for the GOP is ever darkening. it seems that war, hate, and pandering to the willfully ignorant will only get you so far.
You've already said that McCain is going to be crushed in November. Then again, you said he would never win the Republican nomination and that he was "DONE". While nobody knows whats going to happen on election night, McCain is doing remarkably well, despite many of the factors you list against him. I don't deny that Obama has an advantage, but I don't see anything that indicates a landslide at the moment, and from this point on, things historically get tighter in the polling. Zogby came out with a bunch of statistical polls indicating that Bush would not win in 2004, but he did, by the first majority win in the popular vote since 1988.
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:08 PM   #267
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You've already said that McCain is going to be crushed in November. Then again, you said he would never win the Republican nomination and that he was "DONE". While nobody knows whats going to happen on election night, McCain is doing remarkably well, despite many of the factors you list against him. I don't deny that Obama has an advantage, but I don't see anything that indicates a landslide at the moment, and from this point on, things historically get tighter in the polling. Zogby came out with a bunch of statistical polls indicating that Bush would not win in 2004, but he did, by the first majority win in the popular vote since 1988.


i don't know what you're trying to do with any of this STING, but get the chip off your shoulder. we're all just looking at the numbers, looking at the country, looking at some polls, and making a few educated guesses. it seems you take this thing very, very personally, and as such, you seem to want to turn every thought into a big game of gotcha like a child who can't wait to point out every possible imperfection he sees in his parents -- "see! you told me to clean my room, but then YOU left out a coffee cup!"

grow up. yes, i do think that Obama is going to win, possibly going to win big. but i don't know this. i don't say that i know this. i consistently say that i could be wrong, that there are lots of polls, lots of information, and the fact that it's June.

as always, you are creating pretend arguments and statements, and then responding to them.

everyone thought McCain was dead in 2007. and he was dead in 2007. he was lucky that Giuliani was an incredibly poor candidate. and he was lucky that no one fell for Fake Plastic Romney. McCain's rise from the dead is more remarkable when you look at the fact that McCain was the assumed 2008 nominee going way back to 2002. McCain was *always* supposed to be the Republican nominee, hence his grotesque backing of Bush in 2004 that was supposed to win him the support of the Bush political infrastructure.

i also said, all along, that if i were to vote for a GOP candidate, it would no question be McCain. some of that is due to the fact that the rest of the candidates were national embarrassments, but much of it is due to the fact that McCain has gone to great lengths to distance himself from the White House on important issues such as torture and global warming.

but here's why i think Obama is going to win, and win big. whenever you poll people about the issues, Obama wins -- and often wins big -- in every single category except for "terrorism."

[q]http://www.gallup.com/poll/108331/Obama-Has-Edge-Key-Election-Issues.aspx

Summary

Obama is leading McCain by six points among registered voters in the head-to-head matchup included in the current USA Today/Gallup poll, and there are significantly more Americans at the moment who identify themselves as Democrats than as Republicans. So it may not be surprising that Obama is rated as better able to handle more of the tested issues than is McCain.

Regardless of the cause, the finding that Obama has significant strength on domestic issues is potentially quite meaningful in this year's election, given that gas prices and the economy are the two issues the public is most likely to see as important in choosing between presidential candidates. In fact, further analysis of the poll results shows that less than half of Americans believe McCain would be able to do a good job of handling either gas prices or the economy, while 59% say Obama would be able to do a good job on both of these issues.[/q]


so McCain is going to have no choice but to try to scare people, and i don't see that working again. it is my guess that Obama will win the independents, and McCain has none of the base support that Bush enjoyed in 2000 and 2004. the country despises the president. the country also knows McCain much more than they know Obama. and Obama is the greatest orator since JFK. add this all up, and so long as there are no unforced errors, it really should be all Obama in the fall.

these are what the FACTS say at the moment. they could change. but your sunshine-y posts about McCain's chances aren't rooted in much beyond spin.
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Old 06-25-2008, 09:20 AM   #268
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I believe that Reverend Caldwell is also the man who married Jenna Bush and Henry Hager


(AP)LOS ANGELES — Barack Obama said Tuesday that evangelical leader James Dobson was "making stuff up" when he accused the presumed Democratic presidential nominee of distorting the Bible.

Dobson used his Focus on the Family radio program to highlight excerpts of a speech Obama gave in June 2006 to the liberal Christian group Call to Renewal.

Speaking to reporters on his campaign plane before landing in Los Angeles, Obama said the speech made the argument that people of faith, like himself, "try to translate some of our concerns in a universal language so that we can have an open and vigorous debate rather than having religion divide us."

Obama added, "I think you'll see that he was just making stuff up, maybe for his own purposes."

In his program, Dobson focused on examples Obama cited in asking which Biblical passages should guide public policy. For instance, Obama said Leviticus suggests slavery is OK and eating shellfish is an abomination. Obama also cited Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, "a passage that is so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application."

"Folks haven't been reading their Bibles," Obama said in the speech.

"I think he's deliberately distorting the traditional understanding of the Bible to fit his own worldview, his own confused theology," Dobson said.

Asked about Dobson's assessment, Obama said "somebody would be pretty hard-pressed to make that argument" that he was distorting the Bible.

Obama supporters also responded to Dobson.

The Rev. Kirbyjon Caldwell, a Methodist pastor from Texas and longtime supporter of President Bush who has endorsed Obama, said Tuesday he belongs to a group of religious leaders who, working independently of Obama's campaign, launched a Web site to counter Dobson at . The site highlights statements from Obama and Dobson and asks visitors to compare them.

James Dobson Doesn't Speak For Me

Caldwell said he has great respect for Dobson's advocacy for families, but said the criticism of Obama was "a bit over the top" and "crossed the line."

"There has been a call for a higher level of politics and politicking," Caldwell said. "So to attack at this level is inappropriate and I think unacceptable and we at least want to hold everybody accountable."

Tom Minnery, a senior vice president at Focus on the Family, responded: "Without question, Dr. Dobson is speaking for millions of evangelicals because his understanding of the Bible is thoroughly evangelical."

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Old 06-25-2008, 09:25 AM   #269
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^^ Wow This evangelical divide is fascinating.
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Old 06-25-2008, 09:26 AM   #270
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There's no way we can let people like Dobson decide this election
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Old 06-25-2008, 09:30 AM   #271
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There's an interesting article I found on HuffPo this morning that makes the case that Dobson's comments might actually help Obama win Evangelicals. I'll post the link in case anyone wants to take a look.

Frank Schaeffer: Dr. Dobson Has Just Handed Obama Victory - Politics on The Huffington Post
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Old 06-25-2008, 02:41 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Strongbow View Post
When looking at polls, you need to go with the polling company that has been doing this thing the longest and was closest in predicting the 2004 election results:

Gallup Daily: Obama Holds Slight Edge, 46% vs. 43%

Unless McCain falls behind 12 to 15 points in their poll, its unlikely to happen on election day. Historically, the polls tighten as you get closer to election day, and the most accurate poll is already essentially a tie when it comes to this race.
Voter turnout for the November polling is likely to be unprecedented. Voter demographics will also be very different. During the primary season, polls and prognostications were markedly unreliable. I see no reason to believe that this trend will not continue during the general election.
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:27 PM   #273
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Obama disagrees with high court on child rape case

By SARA KUGLER, Associated Press Writer

Democrat Barack Obama said Wednesday he disagrees with the Supreme Court's decision outlawing executions of child rapists.

"I have said repeatedly that I think that the death penalty should be applied in very narrow circumstances for the most egregious of crimes," Obama said at a news conference. "I think that the rape of a small child, 6 or 8 years old, is a heinous crime and if a state makes a decision that under narrow, limited, well-defined circumstances the death penalty is at least potentially applicable that that does not violate our Constitution."

The court's 5-4 decision Wednesday struck down a Louisiana law that allows capital punishment for people convicted of raping children under 12, saying it violates the Constitution's ban on cruel and unusual punishment.

The ruling spares the only people in the U.S. under sentence of death for that crime — two Louisiana men convicted of raping girls 5 and 8. It also invalidates laws on the books in five other states that allowed executions for child rape that does not result in the death of the victim.

Obama said that had the court "said we want to constrain the abilities of states to do this to make sure that it's done in a careful and appropriate way, that would have been one thing. But it basically had a blanket prohibition and I disagree with that decision."

Obama has long supported the death penalty while criticizing the way it is sometimes applied.

As an Illinois legislator, he helped rewrite the state's death penalty system to guard against innocent people being sentenced to die. The new safeguards included requiring police to videotape interrogations and giving the state Supreme Court more power to overturn unjust decisions.

He also opposed legislation making it easier to impose the death penalty for murders committed as part of gang activity. Obama argued the language was too vague and could be abused by authorities.

But Obama has never rejected the death penalty entirely. He supported death sentences for killing volunteers in community policing programs and for particularly cruel murders of elderly people.

"While the evidence tells me that the death penalty does little to deter crime, I believe there are some crimes — mass murder, the rape and murder of a child — so heinous, so beyond the pale, that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment," he wrote in his book "The Audacity of Hope."
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:37 PM   #274
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^To prove that not all Obama supporters are blind sheep, I have to say I disagree with completely with Obama on this issue.
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:41 PM   #275
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Nader: Obama is 'talking white' Obama: Nader seeks attention
By M.E. Sprengelmeyer, Rocky Mountain News
Originally published 12:05 a.m., June 25, 2008

Independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader accused Sen. Barack Obama, the presumed Democratic Party nominee, of downplaying poverty issues, trying to "talk white" and appealing to "white guilt" during his run for the White House.

Nader, a thorn in the Democratic Party's side since the 2000 presidential election, has taken various shots at Obama in recent days while ramping up his latest independent run for president.

In a wide-ranging interview with the Rocky Mountain News on Monday, he said he is running because he believes Democrats, like Republicans, are too closely aligned with corporate interests.

Economic exploitation

Nader was asked if Obama is any different than Democrats he has criticized in the past, considering Obama's pledge to reject campaign contributions from registered lobbyists.

"There's only one thing different about Barack Obama when it comes to being a Democratic presidential candidate. He's half African-American," Nader said. "Whether that will make any difference, I don't know. I haven't heard him have a strong crackdown on economic exploitation in the ghettos. Payday loans, predatory lending, asbestos, lead. What's keeping him from doing that? Is it because he wants to talk white? He doesn't want to appear like Jesse Jackson? We'll see all that play out in the next few months and if he gets elected afterwards."

The Obama campaign had only a brief response, calling the remarks disappointing.

Asked to clarify whether he thought Obama does try to "talk white," Nader said: "Of course.

"I mean, first of all, the number one thing that a black American politician aspiring to the presidency should be is to candidly describe the plight of the poor, especially in the inner cities and the rural areas, and have a very detailed platform about how the poor is going to be defended by the law, is going to be protected by the law, and is going to be liberated by the law," Nader said. "Haven't heard a thing."

"We are obviously disappointed with these very backward-looking remarks," Obama campaign spokeswoman Shannon Gilson said.

Plans to visit DNC

Nader said he plans to travel to Denver during this summer's Democratic National Convention, hoping to highlight an alternative agenda that he thinks the party should pursue. His appearance in the city is sure to anger some Democrats who believe his presence on the ballot during the contested 2000 election cost Al Gore votes, helping Republican George Bush win the disputed election.

Nader rejects that blame, saying Democrats "scapegoated" him instead of looking at other factors that contributed to the defeat.

'Appeal to white guilt'

Nader said he is not impressed with Obama and that he does not see him campaigning often enough in low-income, predominantly minority communities where there is a "shocking" amount of economic exploitation.

He pointed to issues like predatory lending, shortages of health care and municipal resources, environmental issues and others.

"He wants to show that he is not a threatening . . . another politically threatening African-American politician," Nader said. "He wants to appeal to white guilt. You appeal to white guilt not by coming on as black is beautiful, black is powerful. Basically he's coming on as someone who is not going to threaten the white power structure, whether it's corporate or whether it's simply oligarchic. And they love it. Whites just eat it up."
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:49 PM   #276
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^To prove that not all Obama supporters are blind sheep, I have to say I disagree with completely with Obama on this issue.
I agree with him that it is a bad judgment, but I disagree with the reasoning.

I actually sat down and read the whole 65 page judgment today. Some things Kennedy says are just odd. Policy decisions and victim's rights have nothing to do with constitutionality under the Eighth Amendment and he just totally veers off course there.

Regardless of all of that, there should be no death penalty for anyone.
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:49 PM   #277
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First of all: One of the many things I like about Obama is his effort to curb payday-lending. It was a major issue for him as a legislator from Chicago.

Secondly: Nader is a washed-up has-been and he will do anything to get media attention.

He did good things in the past but 8 years ago he really effed things up.
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Old 06-25-2008, 06:02 PM   #278
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Regardless of all of that, there should be no death penalty for anyone.
That's a value judgment, and I counter with another one: A civil society should always have the death penalty available on its statute books. Of course, ideally it will never be used or only used in extremis.
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Old 06-25-2008, 06:28 PM   #279
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I completely disagree. Mercifully almost the entire civilized world has moved beyond it.

Furthermore, our criminal law system is flawed enough that I would not wager somebody's life on it.
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Old 06-25-2008, 08:13 PM   #280
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That's a value judgment, and I counter with another one: A civil society should always have the death penalty available on its statute books. Of course, ideally it will never be used or only used in extremis.
Why would a civil society need an absolute punishment to a non absolute system? That doesn't sound very civil to me.
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