Senator Kerry: Personal beliefs vs. legislation

[U2Kitten]

I have seen that 98% figure several places, I'm sure it's online somewhere too.

Birth control is available at all US local health departments

I am a woman, I have a cycle, I know how it works. That's why I have so little sympathy for 'unplanned' pregnancies. There is also such thing as refraining from having unprotected sex if you don't want to take the chance. There is also the risk of STDs and AIDS on top of pregnancy. Self control and responsibility are also factors for women AND men!

I'm mighty poor and live in trashy neighborhood, I am not on any kind of a 'high horse.' I think the people saying babies are better off dead if the mother is poor are the ones on a high horse

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Sounds like socialism to me. Sorry, I don't believe the government has to pay for everything before a child's life is worth something. If they did all that, isn't that just the same as being on 'welfare?'

So now if you support decent education and healthcare you're a socialist. My oh my, the debate really has moved to the right.

You college girls, yuppies and happy suburbanites must think all of us below you are better off dead!

Who are you to make assumptions about someone's background based on what political positions they adopt? And just for the record, plenty of us "college girls" work harder than most people could imagine to be able to afford our college education. Don't assume that because someone is attending college they must come from an affluent background.

 

[wolfeden]

Why am I wasting my breath.

People.

I will not stoop to posting links to gory photos.

I will tell you, that the misnomer "partial birth abortion", which is not a term used by the medical profession but was coined by the Republican anti-choice coalition, refers to a procedure used incredibly rarely, and always in the saddest and most difficult of times.

These fetuses are horrifically deformed; often they will not survive the birth process should they even survive to term, and all they would know is pain.
The bodies often lack anything resembling a recognizable face or skull; often there is no brain, or what there was of it formed outside of the body. Bones and tissue misdirect and swell into grotesque tangles of flesh; no horror movie has the power to swell your throat closed like the terror and sadness you feel at seeing what held such hope and promise gone so terribly wrong.
The mother is anesthetised during such a procedure -- so, by the grace of shared blood and body systems, is the fetus, assuming it even developed with a nervous system.

These women are not the much-maligned, fictitious "convenience abortion" consumers.

A woman undergoing a late-third-trimester abortion wanted that child very much, felt the kicks and bubbles at night and smiled, watched other children on the playground and cried watching diaper and formula commercials. Bought the first little sleeper and marveled at how tiny it seemed, the first little stockinette hat.

She was not ready for what that sonogram would show, she was not ready to walk out of what was supposed to be one of the last exciting visits before the big day feeling hollow and horrified, guilty and defective herself, reliving the three seconds over and over as the sonographer's face turned white and she abruptly turned the screen away and said "Igottagogetthedoctorberightback".....

Now she sits at home, hugging the round belly that the angel-baby has flown from, rocking and rocking in the chair she expected to sing lullabies to her brand new baby with two eyes and one tiny nose and ten fingers and ten toes, and she cries and cries and wonders what she did wrong, was it the half glass of wine she drank before she knew she was pregnant? did she walk in front of the xray machine at the airport with her husband?
the angel-baby is still in her heart, but the pictures the OBGYN showed her today of anencephaly, the condition her fetus developed with, are all that fills her mind now.

You people have no idea what that woman is going through, have no idea who ends up using that procedure, and no idea what it's actually for.
Yet you judge and say murder, murder.
Shame on you.

 

[U2Kitten]

Who are you to make assumptions about someone's background based on what political positions they adopt? And just for the record, plenty of us "college girls" work harder than most people could imagine to be able to afford our college education. Don't assume that because someone is attending college they must come from an affluent background.

I know that, I know girls on PLEBA, and some cousins of mine who suffer with huge student loans and work very hard.

But I do believe some people who have had more financially secure lives than me don't understand what it's like to be poor and go on living, and how you can get by with less money and materialism. I find it insulting that some assume the babies of poor people are better off dead!

 

[wolfeden]

I have seen that 98% figure several places, I'm sure it's online somewhere too.

Birth control is available at all US local health departments

can you cite that source for us please?

otherwise... it doesn't mean anything, sorry.

And while you're making cracks about yuppies, college girls, and suburbanites -- I've been homeless twice, and I grew up in Roxbury, MA, don't start with me about growing up poor and in shitty neighborhoods.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

But I do believe some people who have had more financially secure lives than me don't understand what it's like to be poor and go on living, and how you can get by with less money and materialism. I find it insulting that some assume the babies of poor people are better off dead!

I actually agree with you that people who come from affluent backgrounds often don't understand what it's like to be poor. Sticking with the college example, I can't stand hearing students whose parents pay their tuition fees and living expenses claiming that ?100 a week (that's ~$180) isn't really too much for the university to charge for a room in hall, or that increasing fees by ?3000 won't stop people from working class backgrounds going to university.

To get back to the subject though, I don't think it's fair to characterise pax's comments as assuming babies born into a poor family would be better off dead. That wasn't what she said at all and I think it's completely unfair to portray her comments in that way.

 

[wolfeden]

I actually agree with you that people who come from affluent backgrounds often don't understand what it's like to be poor.

*nods*

...or the entitlement of the middle-upper-class who don't understand why a single mother on welfare can't "just get a sitter and go to work already".

 

[U2Kitten]

So the kid should die if she has to be on welfare?

 

[U2Kitten]

Oh never mind. I'm tired of having a few things taken out of context anyway. Forget the money thing! I've also seen some of you post that people want to get rid of babies because they interfere with 'careers' so it's not only the poor thing. I can't see how anyone can justify eliminating a healthy child for financial reasons, period. All I can see is death. You all jump all over one thing and ignore everything else I've said.

And all you asking for me to post stats, let's see you post some that prove me wrong!!

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Oh never mind. I'm tired of having a few things taken out of context anyway. Forget the money thing! I've also seen some of you post that people want to get rid of babies because they interfere with 'careers' so it's not only the poor thing. I can't see how anyone can justify eliminating a healthy child for financial reasons, period. All I can see is death. You all jump all over one thing and ignore everything else I've said.

And all you asking for me to post stats, let's see you post some that prove me wrong!!

You complain that your comments are taken out of context and yet in your previous posts you've taken people's comments on possible reasons for women chosing abortion and inaccurately characterized them as "the kid should die if [the mother] is on welfare." Can you not see the hypocrisy there?

 

[Salome]

it doesn't have a lot to do with money
it has to do with being emotionally able to support a child

opinions differ on when you can speak of a human life
I think that's probably the major point

all the more reasons to have laws that establish what we can and can not do
laws that take into account BOTH the sanctity of human life and the consequences of having people emotionally unable (for whatever reason) to deal with kids having them anyway

 

[pax]

Please everyone calm down and read a little more carefully.

As a Christian, a feminist, and the daughter of a mother who worked very hard with very little help to raise four children, I certainly do not feel that the children of poor mothers are better off dead. I feel, in fact, that the children of the poor deserve much more care and respect than they are currently given.

 

[wolfeden]

it doesn't have a lot to do with money
it has to do with being emotionally able to support a child

Well spoken.

 

[U2Kitten]

Oh so now it's okay to kill it if you're not 'emotionally' ready? I can't stand it. These are lame reasons to stop a life. If anyone isn't ready for a kid, please, use birth control or have enough sense and responsibility not to have unprotected sex. This all makes me very sick and I can't stand it. I see I am too emotional over this to keep discussing it, I'm only going to get more upset. I can understand a lot of different opinions on a lot of things, but to me there is just no justification or rationalization for what abortion really is. Killing.

If I've made some of you feel uncomfortable with the things I said, maybe you should think about it.


If some of you think less of me for the things I've said, so be it.


I'm not going to post on this anymore because things will only get worse. This time I'm really leaving, for my own good.


Pax, I know you care about the poor.

 

[wolfeden]

Got cite?

The Number of Abortions after the First Trimester Is Relatively Small

* Between 1997 and 2000, the number of abortions in the United States fell from 1,186,039 to 857,475 (CDC, 2000). The CDC estimates that 58 percent of legal abortions occur within the first eight weeks of gestation, and 88 percent are performed within the first 13 weeks. Only 1.4 percent occur after 20 weeks (CDC, 2000).

* Since the nationwide legalization of abortion in 1973, the proportion of abortions performed after the first trimester has decreased because of increased access to and knowledge about safe, legal abortion services (Gold, 1990).

CDC - Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. (2003, November 28). "Abortion Surveillance - United States, 2000." Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 52(SS-12).

Gold, Rachel Benson. (1990). Abortion and Women's Health: A Turning Point for America? New York: The Alan Guttmacher Institute.

The Alan Guttmacher Institute also has many more up to the minute fact sheets, statistics, and reports on the international condition of family planning, from pregancy and contraception to HIV prevention, America, Africa, Asia and beyond. You may find the information there useful -- DATA does.


Now, about yours.....?


Heh. I thought not.

 

[BVS]

But again, 98% of all US abortions are NOT due to rape, incest or heath reasons.

Let's say this number is true, so these women have to die, or these little girls have to live with a pregnacy because some sicko raped her?

Look I agree it's abused, every system is. But not everyone is using this as a means of birth control or convience.

Every women's fertility is different, birth control is not 100% and not found everywhere, and sex education is still very poor in this country considering it's 2004.

No one in here has even come close to saying anyone is "better off dead."

 

[U2Kitten]

Re: Got cite?

Now, about yours.....?


Heh. I thought not.

When did I ever say anything about that? I disapprove of late term abortion, yes, but I never said it was in high percentages. I said what was in high percentages was abortions for reasons other than rape, incest, or health reasons. I never mentioned a trimester.

As I said in the last post, I am not going to fight about this anymore, I am too emotional over it and it really tears me up to see people defending this. The thread can only get more heated and end up getting closed if I continue to say the things I want to say.

 

[U2Kitten]

and sex education is still very poor in this country considering it's 2004.

Then why does my daughter's fourth grade 'family life' program go into so much graphic detail? What do you know about sex ed? I know a lot of kids and teens in school now, some in very conservative towns, and they get it. Besides, it's all over TV and in the streets. Every kid knows where babies come from by the time they are 8. This isn't the 50's.

No one in here has even come close to saying anyone is "better off dead."

It sure looks that way to me with the excuses and scenarios that are being presented.

Please, I promised a couple people I would not post on this anymore, I'll have to do it for them if not my own good.

 

[BVS]

Then why does my daughter's fourth grade 'family life' program go into so much graphic detail? What do you know about sex ed? I know a lot of kids and teens in school now, some in very conservative towns, and they get it. Besides, it's all over TV and in the streets. Every kid knows where babies come from by the time they are 8. This isn't the 50's.

No it isn't the 50's. What do I know about sex ed? Hmm, let me see about 7 of the women in my family are school teachers all over the southwest, including my mother. I've myself been involved in sex ed programs through the church.

Yes the TV and streets that's who I want teaching my kids. Yes they may know where babies come from but that's not enough. I know teenage girls who think having unprotected sex during certain times of her cycle is fine, that the pull out method is safe, that oral sex won't spread disease. Our society is far too prude about human sexuality to educate our children properly. We're still in the mindset that providing birth control to kids who come and ask for it is promoting sex. NEWSFLASH teenage sex needs no promotion, they will explore sex with or without anyone's help. I'll end my sex ed rant now and let people get back to the yelling.

 

[anitram]

If I've made some of you feel uncomfortable with the things I said, maybe you should think about it.

Two things.

Preaching and condemnation from a moral pulpit really doesn't sit well with me because it usually says a lot more about the person doing the preaching than the intended audience.

Second, if this is your preferred method of communication, you may consider that you will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I'm not extremely passionate about this topic, to be honest, so as somebody looking in, I can tell you that if you want people to think about something, there are considerably more effective ways to do so.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I will tell you, that the misnomer "partial birth abortion", which is not a term used by the medical profession but was coined by the Republican anti-choice coalition, refers to a procedure used incredibly rarely, and always in the saddest and most difficult of times.

Thank you. That's exactly right.

Also, I don't care if the percentage of people who have abortions due to rape or incest or whatever is 2% or 95%, the point is, there are women out there who do use it for that purpose, and small number or not, the choice should still remain.

And besides that, even if their reasons have nothing to do with those kinds of things, it's still their choice. People don't have to agree, or understand, or whatever, but they should not stop the woman from having that choice available to them, just as people shouldn't stop a woman from choosing to put their baby up for adoption or keep their baby.

Angela

 

[nbcrusader]

And besides that, even if their reasons have nothing to do with those kinds of things, it's still their choice. People don't have to agree, or understand, or whatever, but they should not stop the woman from having that choice available to them

At what point should the choice be taken away? The third trimester? 6 months old? 5 years old? Remember, the choice your are talking about is taking a life.

 

[Liesje]

At what point should the choice be taken away? The third trimester? 6 months old? 5 years old? Remember, the choice your are talking about is taking a life.

Good call!

My opinions on abortion are the most absolute opinions I have on anything. To me, abortion is ALWAYS ALWAYS WRONG. Yes, rape and incest are unthinkably horrible experiences, but no child should have to pay. I'm very very sorry, but two wrongs don't ever make one right. I've done some research on abortion and after some of the pictures I saw (even of the first trimester abortions) I could NEVER EVER do that to a baby even if I were raped, or my own life was at risk. I don't buy the whole "but the pregnant mother might die if she delivers the baby" excuse b/c I feel that when a woman makes the decision to become a mother, part of that decision involves bringing that baby safely into the world AT ANY COST. We hear and say all thge time "I'd die for you", but do we? By saying that pro-lifers are passing judgement on people, how is an individual deciding who has the right to live or die a lesser form of judgement? Why does an individual's right to make a choice supercede a baby's right to LIVE? Some please answer that question. Why?

I'm not trying to blow off how hard the decision to have an abortion is, but we should be looking at the root of the issue: why are some people in such a position that they have to make this choice? Two of my friends who I've known since birth have gotten pregnant and honestly the only emotion I will allow is happiness because they'll have these beautiful babies. I just can't feel sorry for them when they've made the choice to screw around and now are faced with the consequences (I really hate to use that word when refering to a baby but I can't think of another word).

And don't tell me I'm preaching from a moral pulpit. I'm preaching from what I believe inside the very core of myself and from what I know and what I've seen. I don't care if no one else here agrees with me.

EDIT: I don't believe that the choice to have an abortion and the choice to put a child up for adoption are comparable. When you put a child up for adoption, you do it so that your child can have a better life. Killing a child is hardly a "better" solution.

 

[anitram]

I don't buy the whole "but the pregnant mother might die if she delivers the baby" excuse b/c I feel that when a woman makes the decision to become a mother, part of that decision involves bringing that baby safely into the world AT ANY COST.

What do you mean you don't "buy" it? You don't find it medically acceptable? Well, I can tell you I know a person in my family whose baby was not going to survive the birth (there are many reasons, look up encelopathy as one, where the baby has no brain and will live for an average of less than 20 hours), and this also placed the mother's life at great risk. She had other children and of course she elected an abortion and I don't see why that was a wrong decision. Should she die in total vain?

As for not having compassion for anyone in this situation, is that the victory Jesus won?

 

[Wild Angel]

What do you mean you don't "buy" it? You don't find it medically acceptable? Well, I can tell you I know a person in my family whose baby was not going to survive the birth (there are many reasons, look up encelopathy as one, where the baby has no brain and will live for an average of less than 20 hours), and this also placed the mother's life at great risk. She had other children and of course she elected an abortion and I don't see why that was a wrong decision. Should she die in total vain?

I saw a story on the news about a woman who was told early in her pregnancy that the baby would be born without a brain and would pass away soon after birth. The doctor recommended abortion. The woman refused and carried the baby to term knowing he wasn't going to live so she could donate his organs to other babies and give them life. His heart, lungs and liver saved the lives of other babies. What a beautiful and selfless gift that woman gave. What a beautiful way for her baby to live on.

I don't know the situation but I can't understand why giving birth to a baby without a brain would be any more dangerous than giving birth to a normal baby.

As for not having compassion for anyone in this situation, is that the victory Jesus won?

Where's the compassion for the child? Thou shalt not kill!

Originally posted by nbcrusader
the choice your are talking about is taking a life.

Exactly No amount of choice rhetoric will ever blot that fact out.

 

[Mrs. Edge]

Sounds like socialism to me. Sorry, I don't believe the government has to pay for everything before a child's life is worth something. If they did all that, isn't that just the same as being on 'welfare?'

Socialism!!!!!!!!!! What exactly is so bad about socialism? We in Canada happen to pride ourselves on our social programs (education, health care for everyone etc.) and we seem to be doing OK last time I checked. Sure we pay more taxes, but we think it's worth it. What else is the government for other than to support its populace?

The point was not that they had to pay for everything to make the child's life worth something. The point is it helps the mother to cope, leaving her with more options, and a better ability to care for the child so she doesn't need to feel desperate enough for an abortion. Good social programs and welfare have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I have a good job, but if I want to go to the hospital and not pay anything, does that mean I'm on welfare? This makes no sense.

Anyway, good for John Kerry. Carry on....

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

At what point should the choice be taken away? The third trimester? 6 months old? 5 years old?

It shouldn't be taken away at all. Personally, I would agree that if a woman's going to have an abortion, it'd be better to do it early on in the pregnancy. But I also know that there's still things that can happen late in the pregnancy that would warrant her having an abortion, so the choice should remain open the whole 9 months.

Originally posted by nbcrusader
Remember, the choice your are talking about is taking a life.

No, it's taking a life that is developing. Again, it is not a full-fledged baby from the moment it's conceived.

Angela

 

[Screaming Flower]

No, it's taking a life that is developing. Again, it is not a full-fledged baby from the moment it's conceived.

even after birth, the life is still developing. why is abortion ok the day before a baby is born versus the day after?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

even after birth, the life is still developing. why is abortion ok the day before a baby is born versus the day after?

By "developing", I mean that it's getting all its necessary organs developed and stuff. That's what I was getting at. You are right, after it's born, it still develops into a child, teen, adult, but I was referring to its organs and stuff developing. Sorry for the confusion.

Now, I'll definitely grant you that there's not really any difference the day before birth and the day after, and by then I would assume that any potential problems would've been taken care of long before then, and if there aren't any, then it should be okay and the pregnancy should continue on as planned.

Angela

 

[Screaming Flower]

By "developing", I mean that it's getting all its necessary organs developed and stuff. That's what I was getting at. You are right, after it's born, it still develops into a child, teen, adult, but I was referring to its organs and stuff developing. Sorry for the confusion.

not to keep dwelling on this ( ), but the necessary organs are developed relatively early. doctors can detect brain activity by the sixth week. all the organs are already in place by the eight week, and the organs are functioning by the tenth or eleventh week. and the saddest part to me - the baby can feel pain by the twelfth week.