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Old 10-09-2012, 08:29 AM   #621
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Its rough for them, ya know. All the minorities/women are getting preference on the civil service tests these days and they don't get to live up to those childhood dreams of being firefighters and cops without a military service record.


Oh wait, that's not true at all.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:57 AM   #622
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if you guys don't agree that America is the best at everything ever, then you must hate America and everything it stands for.

that's how it works.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:11 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
if you guys don't agree that America is the best at everything ever, then you must hate America and everything it stands for.

that's how it works.
While there are some people who truly hate America, not everyone who criticizes it hates this country. I think its because we see hypocrisy and ignorance going around to trump up patriotism and it doesn't make sense.

Not that I'm not seeing your point, Irvine, but I wanted to make my point clear.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:13 AM   #624
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if you guys don't agree that America is the best at everything ever, then you must hate America and everything it stands for.

that's how it works.
Should I start burning flags?


Man, I better start by buying an American flag then, cause I don't own one.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:18 AM   #625
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I can never comprehend the people who believe America is so great based on our liberties. Don't they realize we are not the only country in the world that has freedom of speech, voting rights, etc? Yes, there are many other countries that do not have those rights, but we are not alone in having them. The U.K. is not under a dictatorship, Canadians aren't silenced by their government, Germans can choose their leader, the list goes on.
When I asked INDY about how the Canadian society had disintegrated once gay marriage was legalized he actually pointed me to an article in which Michael Coren (a well-known homophobe and bigot - but I'm sure INDY doesn't know a thing about him) complained that his rights had been curtailed because there was an increase in complaints filed with the various provincial human rights tribunals in the wake of gay marriage being legalized. In other words, our country had gone to shit because gays started to insist that their rights be respected.

So you see, the real problem is that bigots can't be bigoted in public anymore.
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:43 PM   #626
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Chris Kluwe posed for the cover of Out magazine, I don't know if any current NFL player has ever done that. Guess he's making a statement, and I think it's great that an athlete is that secure and confident in himself and his beliefs. He has a punter's body, not that there's anything wrong with that.



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Old 10-09-2012, 03:33 PM   #627
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I wish Kluwe punted for Philly. Not only does he seem like a cool dude, but we desperately need a competent punter.
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:39 PM   #628
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It's silly to say that all of this was a direct result of the Constitution.
It's not silly at all. Our constitution cultivated rule of law, limited government and Judeo-Christian values. The American Dream exists because our society, above all others, fosters a view of aspiration, rather than envy, towards success. We prosper because of that. We are freer because we value liberty over equality of outcome. We are more tolerant because we have been from the outset a nation of E Pluribus Unum.
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And it's even sillier to use this as an excuse to argue for the infallibility of the Constitution. The Founders were not divinely inspired.
Who thought that? The Bible doesn't have an amendment process. (Mormons may have another view about that. ) The constitution does... for a reason.
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In many ways, the political system that they created has been and will remain a problem for the United States to overcome.
Not when the American people support you. Our system is supposed to move with deliberation and consensus. That's only a problem when you're an imperial president trying to move "forward" while the majority of the country is yelling "stop!!"
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Of course, in many ways, it's a fantastic document. I think "mediocre" may have been somewhat too harsh. For its time, it was an incredibly progressive, brilliant document. Certainly the best political system that had been devised. However, I do not believe that it deserves the sort of reverence that it often receives in the United States. Primarily, I really question the existence of states.
States are a vestige of our political past but thank God for them. They are part of the checks and balances of our system. Which begs the question, which state would be the model for the entire country?
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:58 PM   #629
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How do you think non-Americans react when they read something like this?
Depends on if they're educated or indoctrinated.

An educated person would not be threatened by facts -- would be able to articulate and defend the values and successes of his/her own country.

Those indoctrinated in cultural relativism and anti-Americanism... who cares?
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:03 PM   #630
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It's not silly at all. Our constitution cultivated rule of law, limited government and Judeo-Christian values. The American Dream exists because our society, above all others, fosters a view of aspiration, rather than envy, towards success. We prosper because of that. We are freer because we value liberty over equality of outcome. We are more tolerant because we have been from the outset a nation of E Pluribus Unum.
You have a rather simplistic understanding of American history, I'm afraid. But I'm guessing if you'd lived back in the 1840's you would have supported Manifest Destiny and States Rights no?



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Not when the American people support you. Our system is supposed to move with deliberation and consensus. That's only a problem when you're an imperial president trying to move "forward" while the majority of the country is yelling "stop!!"
The above response was too easy a retort. How about addressing this:

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To which I ask, so if that's the case, and we DO leave it to the people to make this decision, and it turns out they DO think the definition of marriage should be changed to include same-sex couples-which is becoming a more likely scenario given the support for same sex marriage continues to increase...what do the conservatives think should happen then in that instance?
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:21 PM   #631
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An educated person would not be threatened by facts -- would be able to articulate and defend the values and successes of his/her own country.
Do you know what the word fact means? Because most your post was, for my money, opinion.

You seem rather indoctrinated, to me, but I would admit that as an opinion, not a fact. You also seem like the type of person who would call me indoctrinated with anti-Americanism, and then tell me that it is a fact, and not your opinion.

Again, my opinion, not a fact.
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:29 PM   #632
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Depends on if they're educated or indoctrinated.

An educated person would not be threatened by facts -- would be able to articulate and defend the values and successes of his/her own country.

Those indoctrinated in cultural relativism and anti-Americanism... who cares?



and you come across as shockingly indoctrinated in misguided patriotism and blind nationalism.

nowhere in that post is a factual, articulate defense of the values and successes of the US.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:37 PM   #633
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Those indoctrinated in cultural relativism and anti-Americanism... who cares?
I love how daring to criticize some aspect of a country is somehow equivalent to being "anti-American" nowadays. It isn't at all possible to love your country and appreciate its good points while still pointing out areas where it could do better-no, that invites shades of gray, and seeing both sides of something, and we can't have that.

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It's not silly at all. Our constitution cultivated rule of law, limited government and Judeo-Christian values.
And as we all know, being Christian automatically means you have good intentions with anything you do. No wolves in sheep's clothing, or anything like that.

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The American Dream exists because our society, above all others, fosters a view of aspiration, rather than envy, towards success. We prosper because of that. We are freer because we value liberty over equality of outcome. We are more tolerant because we have been from the outset a nation of E Pluribus Unum.
As noted, there's plenty of countries that have similar things. I think it's fantastic that our country supports such beliefs and values (even if we don't always seem to practice what we preach), but we're not the only ones who are like that, nor are we even the first ones to come up with the concepts.

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Not when the American people support you. Our system is supposed to move with deliberation and consensus. That's only a problem when you're an imperial president trying to move "forward" while the majority of the country is yelling "stop!!"
Right, which explains why Obama's approval rating generally ranges from reasonably good to strong?

And again, he's come out in support of same sex marriage, and his views seem to be in line with a good portion of the country-as I noted, support for gay marriage is increasing, not decreasing. So I'm curious as to what majority this is you're referring to that's telling him to stop doing...something.

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The above response was too easy a retort. How about addressing this:
The chances of him addressing a lot of the things I and others ask of him are pretty slim, but hey, I'll wait with you and see what happens.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:41 PM   #634
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I love how daring to criticize some aspect of a country is somehow equivalent to being "anti-American" nowadays.
I really have to wonder how much INDY has travelled or if he's lived abroad at all because he really seems to operate on the assumption that most of the rest of the human race spends its days in some sort of anti-American madrasas.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:18 PM   #635
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My parents (avid Fox News watchers; seriously, I have no other idea where they got these crazy notions) reacted to the news that I was going to visit Ireland by myself (roughly) thusly:

".... but they're so anti-American in Europe right now! It's not safe to go!"

I had to stop myself from laughing. I'm pretty sure the mental image they had in their head were gangs of Europeans waiting on the tarmac with baseball bats, just biding their time until an American touched foot on the ground.

Naturally, now that they've heard all about my trip, they're thinking about going themselves.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:32 PM   #636
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I don't know, anitram. Seriously, I've never been outside the U.S. at all, but I'm pretty certain that most people in other parts of the world have no problem with our country or its people at large. They may question our policies, sure, but first off, last I checked that wasn't illegal-they're allowed to do that. And second, hell, we go around criticizing the policies of countries that are our allies day in and day out, so turnabout's fair play, I'd say.

And anyone who does automatically make negative stereotypes about this country and its people based on the actions of some would be an idiot, anyway.

Also, Cori, anytime you go to Ireland in the future, can I go with you ?

And meant to say earlier as well, the pictures you shared, MrsS? Thank you.

That is all .
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:24 PM   #637
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Which comes first, the constitution or the political culture? The answer is it's an interplay of the two, among other things. The soviet union and more than a couple of post-independence African republics had wonderful constitutions on paper... that didn't mean a thing.

As for American exceptionalism, ptah to that. The ideas that attended the birth of the US were part and parcel of the broader enlightenment ideals floating around Britain and France in that era. Without the bountiful accident of nature, the USA would be a more religious Australia. Conversely, without the political culture gifted by (particularly) eighteenth century post-glorious-revolution Britain, it might have ended up looking like Bolivar's version of a united states.
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:35 AM   #638
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Depends on if they're educated or indoctrinated.

An educated person would not be threatened by facts -- would be able to articulate and defend the values and successes of his/her own country.

Those indoctrinated in cultural relativism and anti-Americanism... who cares?
What facts exactly are we talking about here? Because the post that was quoted before doesn't seem to have any.

Sorry bro, I'm not anti America, I'm just European and educated. And America is NOT the biggest player with amazing healthcare and freedom and tolerance. Your healthcare is pretty damn shitty, it's the worst of the entire western world. Many people don't have insurance because they can't afford it, and because so many people don't have it, it will never get affordable. People don't go to dentists or doctors anymore to save money. How the fuck is that greatest healthcare of all??

And tolerance? Don't make me laugh.

Please come live here for a year. You'll see what I mean.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:05 AM   #639
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Right, it only led to the most prosperous, tolerant and freest society... like, ever. The beacon of liberty, champion of free enterprise*, the sole superpower*, emancipator of slaves and Europe (twice), engine to scientific and technological innovation, beneficiary of the most advanced health care in the world*, home to more immigrants than the rest of the world combined and finally, the "last best hope of earth."

*pending results of 2012 election
It still staggers me how a person could actually say this.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:11 AM   #640
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Without the bountiful accident of nature, the USA would be a more religious Australia.
You say "accident." We say, "God knew what he was doing all along and populated this nearly perfect piece of land with naked people who had no guns so they'd be easy to get out of the way as well as provided a welfare-to-work program for 55m Africans, the strongest of whom were (eventually) given the greatest gift of all, which is American citizenship."

Lotsa facts there!
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