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Old 09-23-2012, 03:08 AM   #561
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Eugenics was a shared view of many across the political spectrum Keynes was a big fan as was Churchill just to give an example each from the opposite ends. It was fairly popular in the in the early 20th century and only fell out of favour really due to the Nazi's.

Whatever any of that has to do with SSM, I really have no idea.
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Old 09-23-2012, 06:21 AM   #562
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No well, this is the SSM/Eugenics thread now, so...
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Old 09-23-2012, 06:59 AM   #563
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To be fair when I read SSM, my initial thought is always, 'so we're talkin about BDSM right?'

Then I become fairly disappointed when I discover same sex marriage is still an issue and that we haven't moved on to kinkier things
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Old 09-23-2012, 11:09 AM   #564
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Eugenics was a shared view of many across the political spectrum Keynes was a big fan as was Churchill just to give an example each from the opposite ends. It was fairly popular in the in the early 20th century and only fell out of favour really due to the Nazi's.

Whatever any of that has to do with SSM, I really have no idea.

I often wonder what American Conservatives do when they read simple, widely known facts like this. They read that they are simply wrong ... And then what? Do they turn up Fox even louder? Hit refresh again on Red State? Peruse old Krauthammer and Prager articles?

What does keep them going? Is it really that satisfying to call Margaret Sanger a Nazi?
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Old 09-23-2012, 12:09 PM   #565
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This argument about whether religion, by which I assume people mean Abrahamic religions, has been a net positive or negative on society, seems to recur frequently.

I will say this. From a strictly historical perspective, the adoption and spread of Christianity in Europe and the Near East had little to no influence on people's day-to-day lives. I'll just assume that we are talking about morality as basic decency in terms of altruism, respect, and peacefulness. The crime rate in Europe before and in the ten or so centuries after Christianity had been adopted is basically the same. Wars are still constant. The charities that "pagan" temples and, later, monasteries and convents provided are more or less constant. Out-of-wedlock births, if one sees that as a moral issue, are also very common in both eras. Poverty rates and economic stratification are essentially the same as well.

All this is to say that the effect of Christianity on the day-to-day behavior and economic circumstances of an ordinary person is negligible. You could argue that the Christian era sees greater localization of social and economic life under bishops and other church figures, leading to less interaction with and therefore less understanding of other cultures, but even that can be attributed to the ruin of infrastructure after the Germanic invasions of Rome rather than anything intrinsic to Christianity.

Religion as the western world knows it has been neither a positive nor negative influence on society. It has been a net zero in measurable terms. And I stress "measurable," because obviously there is no way to calculate how a perception of a happy afterlife might have influenced someone psychologically. But regardless of how thoroughly people believed in that afterlife, it does not seem to have influenced their treatment of each other in any substantial way.
But this says nothing on whether a lack of any religion whatsoever would have a positive or negative affect. One religion was just replaced by another here, so any affect religion had wouldn't be measurable, because nothing really changed
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Old 09-23-2012, 12:19 PM   #566
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But this says nothing on whether a lack of any religion whatsoever would have a positive or negative affect. One religion was just replaced by another here, so any affect religion had wouldn't be measurable, because nothing really changed
I think this depends on how you define "religion," which is why I prefaced my comments by noting my assumption that we are talking about the transition from polytheism to Christianity. Do you see religion as primarily a belief in the supernatural or primarily as social organization around a certain belief system held as valuable?
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Old 09-23-2012, 12:36 PM   #567
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I think this depends on how you define "religion," which is why I prefaced my comments by noting my assumption that we are talking about the transition from polytheism to Christianity. Do you see religion as primarily a belief in the supernatural or primarily as social organization around a certain belief system held as valuable?
I find that hard to answer... I suppose the latter to appease the former? It's difficult to separate the two
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:27 PM   #568
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Given the right wing history of being, well, Nazis, they try to rewrite history to say, "see? You do it too."
So why isn't this "among the more offensive, nasty posts in this thread"? I see no disclaimers or effort to disassociate present day conservatives from the Nazis lurking in the shadows of right-wing history.

But of course an honest description of Nazi Germany wouldn't be right-wing or left-wing. They were race-based totalitarians. There was certainly nothing conservative about Hitler; he was an anti-capitalist, anti-Christian revolutionary.
But, in the current, lazy rewriting of history Nazi Germany must be right-wing because they liked big guns and invaded Russia and Joseph Stalin (the definition of Left).
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:21 PM   #569
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anti-Christian
No sir. That said, he did what he did because he was a fucking nutcase, not for any religious leanings
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:14 PM   #570
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No sir. That said, he did what he did because he was a fucking nutcase, not for any religious leanings
I think I could make a strong argument that genocidal anti-Semitism qualifies as a "religious leaning" but, moving on, Hitler above all else was a facist and facism is a religion of the state. Education, the economy, civil society, religion; all must be aligned with the objectives of the facist state.

And now the thread is totally derailed.
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:33 PM   #571
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I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that his Christianity played second fiddle to his mental state, but whatever you like
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:46 PM   #572
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And now the thread is totally derailed.
Because it wasn't nearly weird enough in the last few pages.
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:53 PM   #573
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I'd say it's an indication on how ridiculous it is to be having a debate on same sex marriage in 2012
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:33 PM   #574
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Agreed wholeheartedly on that.
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:14 AM   #575
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So why isn't this "among the more offensive, nasty posts in this thread"? I see no disclaimers or effort to disassociate present day conservatives from the Nazis lurking in the shadows of right-wing history.

What? Go read again. Given the extreme tolerance I show your shocking posts comparing my life to incest, you at least owe me that.
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:18 AM   #576
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But, in the current, lazy rewriting of history Nazi Germany must be right-wing because they liked big guns and invaded Russia and Joseph Stalin (the definition of Left).


And this is hilarious in that its the definition of lazy rewriting.
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Old 09-26-2012, 04:22 PM   #577
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France Proposes Banning Words 'Mother' And 'Father' From Government Documents As Part Of Gay Marriage Legalization

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France Proposes Banning Words 'Mother' And 'Father' From Government Documents As Part Of Gay Marriage Legalization

France could very well become the next nation to legalize same-sex marriage, but lawmakers have reportedly gone a step further with a proposal that could ban the use of the words "mother" and "father" from all government documents.

The Telegraph cites the draft law as specifying that "marriage is a union of two people, of different or the same gender," and also states that all references to "mothers and fathers" in the nation's civil code will be swapped for the non-gender-specific "parents." In addition, the law would also give equal adoption rights to same-sex couples, the publication notes.

France’s Justice Minister Christiane Taubira is quoted as telling French newspaper La Croix, "Who is to say that a heterosexual couple will bring a child up better than a homosexual couple, that they will guarantee the best conditions for the child's development? What is certain is that the interest of the child is a major preoccupation for the government."

Not surprisingly, the move has incensed France's Catholic population, who last month revived a centuries-old custom with an updated national prayer that included references to both same-sex marriage and euthanasia reforms that are currently being planned by the government. Last week, Cardinal Philippe Barbarin warned followers that legalized incest and polygamy could potentially follow if same-sex couples earn the right to wed.

"Gay marriage would herald a complete breakdown in society," he is quoted by the Daily Mail as saying during a radio interview. "This could have innumerable consequences. Afterward they will want to create couples with three or four members. And after that, perhaps one day the taboo of incest will fall."

The draft law will be reportedly be presented to President Francois Hollande's cabinet for approval on Oct. 31. Same-sex and heterosexual civil unions, which offer limited benefits for couples, have been legal in France since 1999, Reuters reports
Spinning the world "forward" towards incertitude and vagueness.
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Old 09-26-2012, 04:25 PM   #578
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Spinning the world "forward" towards incertitude and vagueness.
What do you mean?

If incertitude and vaguness were your concern, surely you wouldn't want legislation referencing a mother when the child's guardians are two fathers. If anything would lead to legal uncertainty...
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Old 09-26-2012, 04:46 PM   #579
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A mother and a father remain the same beings and have the same title in all other ways, do they not? Yes I think that's probably being done just for legal reasons.
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Old 09-26-2012, 04:54 PM   #580
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Spinning the world "forward" towards incertitude and vagueness.

right. legalize marriage for everyone regardless of sexual orientation so everyone is treated equally. much more certain and clear.
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