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Old 07-21-2003, 06:04 AM   #1
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Saddam More Dangerous Defeated According to INtelligence Community

[Q]But declassified portions of a still-secret National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) released Friday by the White House show that at the time of the president's speech the U.S. intelligence community judged that possibility to be unlikely. fact, the NIE, which began circulating Oct. 2, shows the intelligence services were much more worried that Hussein might give weapons to al Qaeda terrorists if he were facing death or capture and his government was collapsing after a military attack by the United States.[/Q]

Now this is interesting!!!!!

Where are the WMD?????????

Why didn't the President take this into account??????http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?nav=hptop_tb

Quote:
The declassified sections of the NIE were offered by the White House to rebut allegations that the administration had twisted prewar intelligence on Iraq's nuclear weapons program. The result, however, could be to raise more questions about whether the administration misrepresented the judgments of the intelligence services on another basis for going to war: the threat posed by Hussein as a source of weapons for terrorists.
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Old 07-21-2003, 09:51 AM   #2
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but God is on our side! we will be the victors!

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Old 07-21-2003, 09:56 AM   #3
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Here is my belief about your statement, red Ships:

You're right. God wasn't on our side.

We were on His side.
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Old 07-21-2003, 09:58 AM   #4
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80s, how on earth do you feel you have the grounds to make that claim?
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Old 07-21-2003, 10:04 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Here is my belief about your statement, red Ships:

You're right. God wasn't on our side.

We were on His side.
If that is true i want to go to hell,...
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Old 07-21-2003, 10:06 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Here is my belief about your statement, red Ships:

You're right. God wasn't on our side.

We were on His side.
The last time I checked God didn't want me to use lies in order to kill. But maybe I missed that part in Bible school. I'll take your word for it, you seem to have the market on the truth.
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Old 07-21-2003, 10:16 AM   #7
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80's has merely stated this is his belief, right or wrong in someone's opinion is not grounds to start picking on the individual.
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Old 07-21-2003, 10:47 AM   #8
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Some group of Moslems gave a tape to Al-Jazeera TV. They are out to get Americans *and* Iraqis helping Americans in Iraq, according to a report on my ISP's news. This scares me. What the hell is going on here? More war? How much more?
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Old 07-21-2003, 12:50 PM   #9
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80sU2isBest: who is "we" - the US?

if yes - when were they on Gods side?

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Old 07-21-2003, 04:07 PM   #10
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Come on people, what does this have to do with the fact that quite possibly, the administration ignored some intelligence or may e did not present this part of the case to the House and Senate. Want to bet it wasn't?

I really expected more from this thread.
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Old 07-21-2003, 04:32 PM   #11
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Dreadsox,

This was a widely discussed point as late as last summer and not something that was classified. In addition, much of the reason for disarming Hussien had to do with his past behavior and not the possibility of him arming terrorist, although that was indeed a possibility. Judging what Saddam would and would not do was very difficult. The same intelligence community overwhelmingly said he would never invade Kuwait, but he did.

Saddam's unpredictability and refusal to cooperate in disarmament is precisely why he had to go.
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Old 07-21-2003, 04:37 PM   #12
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Dreadsox:

if the declassified part is the same as the genaral context of the document it would mean that the US Government didn't start a war because of the informations they had but although they had the information.
-> the WMDs were not the real reason for the War.

So there is left: Oil and strategic interests

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Old 07-21-2003, 04:46 PM   #13
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I never, ever understood the administration's apparently desperate desire/need to go to war RIGHT then and there. They were unwilling to spend any more time on it, they repeatedly shut down efforts by the Canadian government to produce a deal that would sort of mediate between the French/Germans/Russians and the US, and insisted that the reasoning was they could waste absolutely not another second. That is how things were presented and I always felt it was bullshit. Seems to me now they were willing to bypass logic and foresight just to get their way.

As for why the thread went the way it did, I believe "we were on his side" is a borderline inflammatory statement, because we were not all on the same side and I'll be damned if somebody else dictates to us who was and was not on God's side. Just saying.
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Old 07-21-2003, 04:47 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram

As for why the thread went the way it did, I believe "we were on his side" is a borderline inflammatory statement, because we were not all on the same side and I'll be damned if somebody else dictates to us who was and was not on God's side. Just saying.
It's all cool....

BTW....Clay and I will be by to serenade you!!!

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Old 07-21-2003, 05:03 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
BTW....Clay and I will be by to serenade you!!!

Like this?



You know I love ya, Dreadsox. I actually think you're my favourite non-leftist in the whole wide world.
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Old 07-21-2003, 05:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus


So there is left: Oil and strategic interests

Klaus
I thought the first of these had been debunked many times over: if all Bush wanted was the oil, he'd just tell the UN to drop the sanctions and deliver some spiel about how the sanctions are inhumane, 500,000 children have died because of lack of medical supplies, etc. Then he wins both ways -- he gets the oil and he looks like a "humanitarian".
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Old 07-21-2003, 05:56 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


As for why the thread went the way it did, I believe "we were on his side" is a borderline inflammatory statement, because we were not all on the same side and I'll be damned if somebody else dictates to us who was and was not on God's side. Just saying.
I would suggest that Bush's (and 80's and others') notion that "God was on our side" is offensive because a priori you disagree with Bush himself (because you think he made selective use of evidence, shunned diplomatic efforts by others, etc.) The fact that he claims God on his side makes him more offensive to you.

The respected pastor and theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer thought that God wanted him and others to assassinate Hitler. Seriously.

I'm not going to analyze in detail the similarities and differences between the two examples here; I just wanted to point out that the notion that God is on somebody's side in a war or that God might want someone to kill someone else is of itself not inherently evil or misguided.
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Old 07-21-2003, 06:00 PM   #18
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Re: Saddam More Dangerous Defeated According to INtelligence Community

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
[Q]But declassified portions of a still-secret National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) released Friday by the White House show that at the time of the president's speech the U.S. intelligence community judged that possibility to be unlikely. fact, the NIE, which began circulating Oct. 2, shows the intelligence services were much more worried that Hussein might give weapons to al Qaeda terrorists if he were facing death or capture and his government was collapsing after a military attack by the United States.[/Q]

Now this is interesting!!!!!

Where are the WMD?????????

Why didn't the President take this into account??????http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?nav=hptop_tb

Because the other consequences of overthrowing Saddam were thought to outweigh the possibility of WMDs being leaked to terrorists, perhaps? (Although if Bush had thought this, you could argue that he shouldn't have emphasized the WMD threat the way he did.)
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Old 07-21-2003, 06:03 PM   #19
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speedracer: I just mentioned the oil again because Sting2 (not to be known to bash the current US government) mentioned the Iraqi oil several times as legitime interest of the US.
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Old 07-21-2003, 06:11 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer

The respected pastor and theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer thought that God wanted him and others to assassinate Hitler. Seriously.
You can't say it in such a short and easy way.
Mr. Bonhoeffer was fully aware that he did something evil when trying to kill Hitler.
Bonhoefer said: "To Follow Jesus means to work for Peace and Justice"
He accepted for himself that Pacifism wasn't enough, that he had to do something. He didn't accept any colaterale damage, he was willing to risk his own life, not the life of other guys.

From my point of view it is completely unacceptable to compare outstanding bad people like Hitler to "average horrible dictators" like Mr Hussein - and it's also unacceptable to compare outstanding good people to average presidents who were not willing to give their life but to accept the loss of other lifes (soldiers and foreign civlists).

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