QUESTION

nintendan · 12-13-2001, 11:07 PM

Supposing an Afghani farmer who never approved of the Taliban, never approved or encountered Bin Laden or Al Quaida returns to his village to find that his home destroyed by a misguided American bomb.

His wife and two children have been killed, he has lost everything and is devastated. Supposing he is one day able to finance his way to the U.S.A. Would it be justified if he were to buy a machine gun and kill as much Americans as he can.

DoctorGonzo · 12-13-2001, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Would it be justified if he were to buy a machine gun and kill as much Americans as he can

No.

But his desire to would certainly be understandable.

Danospano · 12-13-2001, 11:17 PM

I would understand why he would want revenge. A lot like the terrorist did on 9/11. I don't support the follow statement, but I think he would have an urge to kill as many bastards as he could...and show no remorse.

**Diemen** · 12-14-2001, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nintendan:
Supposing an Afghani farmer who never approved of the Taliban, never approved or encountered Bin Laden or Al Quaida returns to his village to find that his home destroyed by a misguided American bomb.

His wife and two children have been killed, he has lost everything and is devastated. Supposing he is one day able to finance his way to the U.S.A. Would it be justified if he were to buy a machine gun and kill as much Americans as he can.

No, because as you said, the American bomb was misguided, in other words it wasn't intended to hit a civilian house full of innocent people. If he were to come to the states and get a gun and kill people, it would an act of calculated, cold-blooded murder of innocents, not a tragic mistake.

Klodomir · 12-14-2001, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diemen:
No, because as you said, the American bomb was misguided, in other words it wasn't intended to hit a civilian house full of innocent people. If he were to come to the states and get a gun and kill people, it would an act of calculated, cold-blooded murder of innocents, not a tragic mistake.

Oh, come on! People don't rationalize like that when their family has been killed. Would you?

babble · 12-14-2001, 08:29 AM

[/QUOTE]Oh, come on! People don't rationalize like that when their family has been killed. Would you?[/QUOTE]

Of course not, but it doesn't justify just running in and killing a bunch of innocent people just because they happen to be American does it? Do you agree?

devalera1 · 12-14-2001, 08:31 AM

Danospano - what revenge were the 9/11 terrorists seeking? These were educated men who came from upper middle class families, financed by a very rich man. What are they avenging?
And before you answer poverty in their lands, keep this in mind - they did nothing to help those in need, they only killed innocents here. In fact, they probably undermined any US empathy and corresponding foreign aid.

Klodomir · 12-14-2001, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by babble:
Of course not, but it doesn't justify just running in and killing a bunch of innocent people just because they happen to be American does it? Do you agree?

It certainly does not justify killing innocent people, but like it or not, we are doing that too. Even if "we" don't "mean to", we are killing innocent people. And the people of Afghanistan did not ask us to come and liberate them, so yes, if they do try to take revenge, it's understandable, even if reprehensible.

**Diemen** · 12-14-2001, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Klodomir:
Oh, come on! People don't rationalize like that when their family has been killed. Would you?

I'm well aware that people don't rationalize that way when their family is killed, but I was speaking objectively.

[This message has been edited by Diemen (edited 12-14-2001).]

Lilly · 12-14-2001, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by devalera1:
These were educated men who came from upper middle class families, financed by a very rich man.

I'm assuming that by "well educated" you mean "learned a lot from propaganda and never learned from truth or experience". Are you kidding? These men were pawns. If Osama really wanted to become a martyr, HE would have been on the plane. Osama and other leaders are very intelligent and cunning, they know that if their stooges-excuse me-"brothers" in the Taliban knew the truth about what Islam really is and how they were killing so very many people, would they have actually done it? Propaganda is VERY, VERY effective in pursuading people. Especially when there is no way to get any type of other opinions. This is why radio and television were banned. Had the Taliban "brothers" been listening to a BBC broadcast or watching any sort of Western tv, or had read Western books would they have committed the acts they had committed? But, retrospect is indeed 20/20...so I guess I don't know what they would and would not do.

------------------
Taste is the enemy of art.

sv · 12-14-2001, 06:50 PM

Lilly, I agree with the first half of your argument.

But when you suggest that Western TV (especially American TV and media) is not the purest form of propaganda, you are so incredibly mistaken. To read a scholarly discussion of this that might change your mind, try Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent", published in 1984. After reading it, you will never be able to read the news the same again.

OzAurora · 12-14-2001, 07:11 PM

It is very hard not to put emotion into debates like this- I am a huge believer of the idea that it takes more strength and prooves that you are more intelligent by not stooping to the levle of those that you hate or have done bad by you, if someone I loved was murdered I would be terribly upset and would want revenge for a little bit but then I would like to think that I would be clear headed and would realise that killing them would be just as bad, so anyway in light of the poor Afghani I dont think that he should go and kill, because it would be nice to think and assume that maybe the yanks who 'accidently' blew up his home and family might of said sorry and offered him some kind of aid, both financial and emotional therefore hopefully putting the guys mind a little at ease and eleviating any bad feelings that he may have towards the Americans, but hey this aint a perfect world and they yanks just like our dumb ass PM dont know the meaning of the word 'sorry'..........

nintendan · 12-14-2001, 07:20 PM

Ok. Supposing now, that the bomb was not misguided or an errant bomb, but America had reason to believe that some member of the Al Quaida leadership was staying in a house in the village to escape bombing in say Kabul.

Knowing this (and at the same time the farmer does not know this)they bombed the village knowing that some civilians would be injured.

Would the Afghani farmer be more justified to retaliate since they knowingly killed his family.

Lilly · 12-16-2001, 02:33 AM

I know about american tv, though that wasn't what I was referring to with the term "western". I suppose I should have clarified. Sorry

------------------
Taste is the enemy of art.

12-13-2001, 11:07 PM	#1
nintendan The Fly Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Montserrat W.I Posts: 41 Local Time: 01:17 PM	QUESTION Supposing an Afghani farmer who never approved of the Taliban, never approved or encountered Bin Laden or Al Quaida returns to his village to find that his home destroyed by a misguided American bomb. His wife and two children have been killed, he has lost everything and is devastated. Supposing he is one day able to finance his way to the U.S.A. Would it be justified if he were to buy a machine gun and kill as much Americans as he can. __________________

12-16-2001, 02:33 AM	#14
Lilly Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: back and to the left Posts: 8,523 Local Time: 07:17 AM	I know about american tv, though that wasn't what I was referring to with the term "western". I suppose I should have clarified. Sorry ------------------ Taste is the enemy of art. __________________

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12-13-2001, 11:17 PM	#3
Danospano Refugee Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,415 Local Time: 08:17 AM	I would understand why he would want revenge. A lot like the terrorist did on 9/11. I don't support the follow statement, but I think he would have an urge to kill as many bastards as he could...and show no remorse.

12-14-2001, 08:29 AM	#6
babble The Fly Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Lynn Haven, FL Posts: 145 Local Time: 07:17 AM	[/QUOTE]Oh, come on! People don't rationalize like that when their family has been killed. Would you?[/QUOTE] Of course not, but it doesn't justify just running in and killing a bunch of innocent people just because they happen to be American does it? Do you agree?

12-14-2001, 08:31 AM	#7
devalera1 The Fly Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Alexandria, VA, USA Posts: 79 Local Time: 01:17 PM	Danospano - what revenge were the 9/11 terrorists seeking? These were educated men who came from upper middle class families, financed by a very rich man. What are they avenging? And before you answer poverty in their lands, keep this in mind - they did nothing to help those in need, they only killed innocents here. In fact, they probably undermined any US empathy and corresponding foreign aid.

12-14-2001, 06:50 PM	#11
sv The Fly Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 229 Local Time: 01:17 PM	Lilly, I agree with the first half of your argument. But when you suggest that Western TV (especially American TV and media) is not the purest form of propaganda, you are so incredibly mistaken. To read a scholarly discussion of this that might change your mind, try Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent", published in 1984. After reading it, you will never be able to read the news the same again.

12-14-2001, 07:11 PM	#12
OzAurora Refugee Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia Posts: 1,612 Local Time: 12:17 AM	It is very hard not to put emotion into debates like this- I am a huge believer of the idea that it takes more strength and prooves that you are more intelligent by not stooping to the levle of those that you hate or have done bad by you, if someone I loved was murdered I would be terribly upset and would want revenge for a little bit but then I would like to think that I would be clear headed and would realise that killing them would be just as bad, so anyway in light of the poor Afghani I dont think that he should go and kill, because it would be nice to think and assume that maybe the yanks who 'accidently' blew up his home and family might of said sorry and offered him some kind of aid, both financial and emotional therefore hopefully putting the guys mind a little at ease and eleviating any bad feelings that he may have towards the Americans, but hey this aint a perfect world and they yanks just like our dumb ass PM dont know the meaning of the word 'sorry'..........

12-14-2001, 07:20 PM	#13
nintendan The Fly Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Montserrat W.I Posts: 41 Local Time: 01:17 PM	Ok. Supposing now, that the bomb was not misguided or an errant bomb, but America had reason to believe that some member of the Al Quaida leadership was staying in a house in the village to escape bombing in say Kabul. Knowing this (and at the same time the farmer does not know this)they bombed the village knowing that some civilians would be injured. Would the Afghani farmer be more justified to retaliate since they knowingly killed his family.