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Two thoughts:
1) How many excuses are we going to make for ourselves? I hate to belabor the environment thing, but for pity's sakes -- we screwed it up. The warnings of global warming have been evident for years, but people stuck their heads in the sand. Who are we going to blame? God?
2) Despite agreeing about not blaming God "alone," you certainly do seem to lay an awful lot of blame at His feet. I suppose, at the end of the day, you're either going to see God or you're not. If you don't, that's certainly your right, but I think your skepticism masks something much deeper, which is why I don't think you're really an agnostic, because your mind seems more made up than you say it is...
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so earthquakes and tsunamis are our fault? we do have a specific name for these things -- Acts of God. i fully blame humans for what goes in in the Sudan and the shit we pump into our atmosphere, but my question remains, that if we are to take the more sentimental view of a loving God who answers and responds to prayers (which also isn't my view, as i fall much closer to Melon), then why doesn't he do something about it? we charge people for not acting to stop certain crimes -- why not ask God to get up and do something?
as for my closet atheism, which isn't actually true, just keep in mind that i'm arguing a point, and i actually agree with two fundamental points made by the religious -- God really cannot be understood in human terms (which, to me, kills dead the notion that he's loving and listens and cares and loves and wants a relationship), and, two, that atheism is an article of faith. we can't *know* one way or the next.
[q]I agree with you that it's an abusive relationship, but I'd argue that it's the reverse way. (Jesus being the prime example.) God takes an awful lot from us. How often, for example, do we ask the question "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" vs. "Why do I let bad things happen to good people?" I think He can take it -- He and I have had it out on more than one occasion -- but at the same time, I'm not sure how I would feel if my name was used as a curse word.[/q]
this seems to underscore my earlier "battered spouse" analogy. and, again, i know why *we* let bad things happen to good people -- we elect idiot leaders, for example -- but i don't know why, if we've got this relationship with God, and if he loves us in an active, human sense, he doesn't do something to stop these bad things.
what i don't understand is why you say that we cannot hold God to "our" standards and conventions, yet all of your posts express him in only human terms using human standards and conventions.
[q]Who does? Raise your hand if you think you're a bad person. I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning saying, "Let's see, shall I start today with lusting, exploiting, pillaging, raping, drinking to excess, stealing, swearing, or abusing?" But the fruits of our days bear themselves out, don't they? If we are not sinners, why is the world the way it is?[/q]
okay -- so you do think that sin is like a swear jar?
the last question is an excellent one -- but it's for you to answer, and it holds you accountable, since i think the world is the way that it is because that's the way the world is. things simply are. and we do our best to deal with it.
[q]Only if you believe that genuinely sinful people wake up and think that way. But we don't live in a world of moustache twirlers, do we, yet somehow the world is full of corruption, greed, hatred, pride, selfishness, etc. This is what is referred to as the "sin nature". "Who shall deliver me from this body of death," wondered Paul in despair, for in spite of our best efforts, we are so often our own worst enemies. [/q]
i'd agree with this, and i do think that the "sin" might lie in the rationalizations that people make in order to justify their actions, but i still maintain that most people aren't in a position of power to adversely affect the world. as income consolidatse into an ever decreasing tiny minority of the population, the ability to "sin" on a grand level -- a level whereby one could affect laws, policy, etc. -- is dwarfed by the amount of people who don't have the power to act in such a way that it affects a large amount of people.
believe it or not, i think much of what you're saying about sin makes logical sense. i always thought that most of NBC's posts were of sound logic, if utterly preposterous, in my opinion. i can see the coherence of the worldview, even if i think it's preposterous.
but it cannot for the life of me say that babies are born with horrible birth defects because there's sin in the world. it's like saying that people who get HIV deserve it. i don't buy the Butterfly Effect/ Chaos Theory when it comes to "sin." it seems crazy to think that because a man cheats on his wife, two 15 year old girls die in a car accident.
[q]Only if you look at God as rewarding good behavior or bad behavior. If God however is primarily concerned with relationship, and with knowing us and loving us to the point that we become more like Him, then it's not God Who punishes our mistakes. It's we who more often than not bring these things on ourselves. A friend of mine summed it up nicely just today over lunch -- "After you're 25, you probably need to realize that all your problems have one person in common: you."
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i like the last line. i do. and it sounds very "Man in the Mirror" to me, and i can't disagree with the message: if you want to make the world a better place take a look at yourself and make a change. i'm a fan of personal responsibility. and i can understand that if we are to believe God/Jesus as a perfect model of behavior, and we all try to make ourselves more like him, then the world will be a better place. i can see that. i can see that if we all tried to be more like MLK, or Ghandi, or even (dare i say it) Bono, the world would be a better place.
but i still think that we could all be the best we could be, and a tsunami is still going to wipe out 250,000 people, and people are still going to get cancer and AIDS, and God isn't going to do a thing about it. and if this relationship is so important, why doesn't he do something about all this horror?
one thing i have gained over the past year or so is a true appreciation for what actual, real, lived-in violence is like. i've spent a lot of time in police stations and working with police officers, and what they have to deal with is enough to shake any worldview. i see no God in crime scene photos. i see no God in chilling 911 phone calls. it's in these moments of sheer horror that the actual emptiness of it all, the fact that there just might be no "there" there, that fills me with dread.
and ... well, that's a huge, huge post, and i'm not awake enough to really start writing about that.