Marriage Equality Defended in Massachusetts - Page 11 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-21-2007, 02:41 PM   #201
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,601
Local Time: 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2
Yikes, a lot to respond to.



Fair questions.

1) Because, as was stated, we cannot predict who will be gay. I'm obviously not an expert on the homosexual experience, but I'm under the impression that people a) for whatever reason are attracted to the same sex or b) switch orientation due to bad experiences or relationships with the opposite sex. If I, right now, decided to be gay after 19 years of attraction and relationships with females, does that mean I was born gay or destined to be a homosexual? I'm not so sure.

how you break it down and describe things here is fuzzy, almost like one is choosing


This rarely is the case.


Do you think Mary Cheney, the Vice President's daughter, arrived at her homosexuality in this manner?

Also, the fact that some straight men in prison engage in homosexuality also muddies the choice issue.


But, I am certain that whatever is in your DNA that causes you to find the female form attractive, and the touch of a woman exciting and appealing is the same thing that same sex couples feel towards each other.
It truly is in their DNA.
I believe the overwhelming majority of gay people did not consider, or choose their orientation any more than you did.

Did you ever have thoughts like these?

"OK. I should start looking for a companion/ lover now.

The question, a woman or a man?"

Pros for a man,

1. We could share our clothes

2. Someone to go fishing and hunting with

3. I will never get stuck paying child support

4. I won't have to deal with monthly cycles



Wow, looks like there is some upside to this gay thing

Now,

Pros for a woman,

1. playbags

ok. I'm done,

Made my mind up. (or my DNA did)




edit to add

that you got it half right

the answer is

a. for whatever reason are attracted to the same sex

and "whatever reason" is their DNA or genes
__________________

deep is offline  
Old 06-21-2007, 02:45 PM   #202
Blue Crack Addict
 
unico's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rage Ave.
Posts: 18,749
Local Time: 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2
Unico, why is man/man relations as described in the Bible not considered homosexual in your eyes? As far as I know, there arent any "woman lusting after women" passages because it was already mentioned and condemned using the male pronoun.
I've never said man/man relations were not homosexual But I'll clarify. The bible passages you're referring to explicity say man/man relations are sinful in those particular contexts. HOWEVER, it says nothing about woman/woman. The bible does not say it is a sin to be born homosexual, nor does it even define homosexuality. It talks about an Act. Between Men. How can you assume that women are condemned using the male pronoun? Given the context, it is specifically referring to men, so I'd have to disagree here based on this proof. Also, like I said, it says nothing about how homosexuals are sinners. It is talking about an act, not the people.
__________________

unico is offline  
Old 06-21-2007, 03:11 PM   #203
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


Just because scientists are not certain what combinations of genes cause homosexuality does not mean that they are unsure whether homosexuality is something a person is born with. It is. Your only defense really is the passages written in the Bible, and they are passages you have misinterpreted. There IS a difference between homosexuality of Biblical times, and that of modern day.

If the Bible stated some other fact was wrong, would you believe it? If it denied that there is a continent of Africa, would you take its word for it?
Development isn't 100% determined by genes, but I don't think that those who say it couldn't be genetic are actually being technical.
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-21-2007, 03:18 PM   #204
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


No, I do not believe you. I have read reports on the internet of scientists stating otherwise- that environment plays a role and that you cannot predict who will be gay. Those are some of the problems with your theory and insistance that being born gay is a fact. It might be, but it might not be. You all seem too eager to accept anything that science says.

I still fail to see how you think I am lying to myself.
"Science" doesn't say it as it is merely a system of investigation; it is the evidence that supports the notion that our sex drive is biologically based and that there is a spectrum of sexual behaviours (did you know that some ducks engage in necrophilia or that there is homosexual behaviour in other animals?). The problem is that the factors that play into it from our genes, hormones, development, in utero conditions ad infinitum don't lend well for a single deterministic factor that makes someone bent. But again how does it matter from the perspective of freedom; religious conservatives trumpet the importance of faith and freedom but at the same time seem to advocate things antiethical to liberty such as government interventions against homosexuality, censorship or pornography and religion in government. When you want to take your own biases and get the government to enforce them it is anti-freedom. nobody else has sovereignty over me than me and if that included something like a soul (highly improbably) then it isn't your to defend.

I don't think that your lying to yourself, I think that your belief system depends on not knowing or understanding competing viewpoints. If you start to reject parts of your theology then piece by piece you become less Christian; at least it isn't malicious.
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-21-2007, 03:19 PM   #205
Blue Crack Addict
 
unico's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rage Ave.
Posts: 18,749
Local Time: 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I don't think that your lying to yourself, I think that your belief system depends on not knowing or understanding competing viewpoints.
dualism.
it is the primary stage in many cognitive development theories.
unico is offline  
Old 06-21-2007, 03:32 PM   #206
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Did you ever have thoughts like these?
"OK. I should start looking for a companion/ lover now.
The question, a woman or a man?"
Pros for a man,
1. We could share our clothes
2. Someone to go fishing and hunting with
3. I will never get stuck paying child support
4. I won't have to deal with monthly cycles

Wow, looks like there is some upside to this gay thing

Now,
Pros for a woman,
1. playbags
ok. I'm done,
Made my mind up. (or my DNA did)
I hope you're joking...
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 06-21-2007, 04:09 PM   #207
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,601
Local Time: 09:36 AM
I kind of was going for a shallow (as in shallow Hal) or silly point

Did you ever consider choosing to be the opposite of your sexual orientation?


if one could choose his/ or her sexual orientation

same sex relationships would have many advantages

i think many of us have, close, long lasting same sex friendships

ask anyone
who is your best friend
and more than likely they will name someone of their sex
deep is offline  
Old 06-21-2007, 04:37 PM   #208
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 06:36 PM
In my own case that happens not to be true, but fair enough, for more people than not it is, which of course is fine. I figured you were most likely being 'silly' for a reason, but it did kind of come across as "DNA puts a gun to your head and makes you settle for what's clearly a lesser choice for you" which IMO, any straight person who feels that way--and I know there are those who do--has some psychological issues they need to work on. I take your point though, sexual orientation and attraction is a powerful enough force that, if you're straight, it will drive you into relationships with the opposite sex even if you categorically hold them in some kind of contempt for whatever messed-up reasons. But what Irvine said is also true; without getting into one-dimensional essentialism about it, orientation does go beyond the appeal of the physical 'package,' there's an emotional component to the craving for a particular type of companionship as well, and anyone who fights that too much in themselves is likely to wind up miserable.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 06-21-2007, 04:40 PM   #209
Blue Crack Addict
 
joyfulgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 16,656
Local Time: 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by deep

ask anyone
who is your best friend
and more than likely they will name someone of their sex
except me, whose best friend is a gay male--not at all uncommon

I loved your post about choosing your sexual orientation. You nailed it, IMO.
joyfulgirl is offline  
Old 06-21-2007, 05:17 PM   #210
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,892
Local Time: 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


1) Because, as was stated, we cannot predict who will be gay. I'm obviously not an expert on the homosexual experience, but I'm under the impression that people a) for whatever reason are attracted to the same sex or b) switch orientation due to bad experiences or relationships with the opposite sex. If I, right now, decided to be gay after 19 years of attraction and relationships with females, does that mean I was born gay or destined to be a homosexual? I'm not so sure.
Speaking as a heterosexual, I cannot fathom being attracted to s another man. I just can't. And I could never imagine "switching" orientation. I know it's not very scientific or anything but that for me is HUGE evidence that homosexuality is not chosen. Anyone who thinks they can switch must either be homosexual or bisexual. I also think it's important to point out that when we talk about "born with" we should qualify that by pointing out that prepubescent children don't yet have the sexual inclinations that adults do anyway. The point is those attractions do start to take shape and gain strength around the time of puberty. Every gay person I've talked to says that they "always knew" even when they were living (or trying to live) as a straight person. I would guess gay posters are better able to speak to this, but I imagine extrapolating from my own experience as a straight person would be fairly accurate.

Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

2) I dont want to deny those things. The family in the story should have been able to visit the woman.
Thanks for your response on that. I appreciate it.

Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

3) A gay couple getting married is not a direct threat to me. However, I dont follow the "do whatever you want as long as it doesnt effect me" mentality. I, because of my upbringing, believe that certain traditions need to be upheld and unchanged. Marriage being a man and a woman is one of my personal beliefs and values, just as "marriage is people who love each other" may be one of yours.
Fair enough. So you would type this current debate over gay marriage as "whose values get to be enshrined in law?" and you're hoping your side wins and not the other? I suppose I can understand that ,but wouldn't you think as a Christian, that you would want people to be free to make these types of moral choices between them and God right? There ARE moral areas after all in which, at least today, the government doesn't get involved--for example adultery. I think there's no debate for most of us as to the "wrongness" or "rightness" of adultery, and yet no one's advocating that the rights of adulterers should be taken away.



Here's the thing: You can still be a Bible-believing Christian who has an a real and meaningful relationship with Jesus, and change your views and even challenge what you've been taught or always believed. It's scary, granted. And there are many people who don't have the guts to do it, but it can and should be done. Getting out of your comfort zone, living where sometimes the only thing you're sure of is the grace of Jesus, can be daunting but I think it's worth it. I wish I could say I were braver in taking that leap of faith. . .I'm not always as much as I'd like to be, but I'm trying.

Have you read the book What's So Amazing About Grace? by Philip Yancey? Excellent book by a solid Christian (evangelical even) author that I think you'd really appreciate.

I hope that you won't be just a tourist here. . .dropping in to see what the "liberals and secular humanists" are up to before going back to being around like-minded folks who will reinforce , reassure, and support "what you've always believed." Stick around. Pray. Stay in the Word. Listen. Express your views as thoughtfully as you can. Take the heat. Keep thinking. Remember these four words "I could be wrong."
maycocksean is offline  
Old 06-21-2007, 05:31 PM   #211
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:36 AM
Quote:
decided to be gay after 19 years of attraction and relationships with females
You were sexually attracted to females when you were an infant or small child - or was there a point when you started to find girls a bit more interesting?
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-21-2007, 05:39 PM   #212
Blue Crack Addict
 
joyfulgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 16,656
Local Time: 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean

I think there's no debate for most of us as to the "wrongness" or "rightness" of adultery, and yet no one's advocating that the rights of adulterers should be taken away.

What a great example.
joyfulgirl is offline  
Old 06-21-2007, 05:45 PM   #213
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,601
Local Time: 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
You were sexually attracted to females when you were an infant or small child -
all baby boys are born straight
and all baby girls are born gay

as the girls get older most of the choose to go straight, lucky for us straight guys.
deep is offline  
Old 06-21-2007, 06:00 PM   #214
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,601
Local Time: 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl


What a great example.
and anyone that has ever fornicated even once

should for ever be labeled as someone that all decent people reserve "hate" for

fornication is their "sin"

we should say we love you "fornicator"

but we hate "your sin".

thank you for validating are "righteous hate"

we go to church to validate our "hate'.


Love the filthy fornicator and hate their "filthy sin".


oh, and the best part for you

you will never be able to partake of the sacrament of marriage,
you will forever be known as the "fornicator" that allows us our righteous hate.

So it is "written" in the Lord's Book.
deep is offline  
Old 06-22-2007, 08:53 AM   #215
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,715
Local Time: 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl


except me, whose best friend is a gay male--not at all uncommon


and he's kinda attractive, too.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 06-22-2007, 08:59 AM   #216
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,715
Local Time: 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean

Every gay person I've talked to says that they "always knew" even when they were living (or trying to live) as a straight person.


and some of us had Playboys in our rooms, and late at night we'd try and try and try and try ... and it wasn't that it couldn't happen, it was that it was a struggle, and a near forcing of a response that, when you're 15, should be pretty near automatic. whereas i could just close my eyes and imagine the same sex, and it would be as natural as breathing.

being an overly analytical, over-thinking individual with an expansive self-narrative, i thought i could re-condition myself, i spun pseudo-psychological narratives for myself to explain this away, i reassured myself that once i finally had sex with a woman then it would all go away. or at least become manageable.

and i will say that the first time with a woman wasn't a chore, exactly, but it was an effort, and awkward, and something i felt i must do, and do well.

first time with a man, it was like taking a long drink of water after marching through the deserted for 3 days.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 06-22-2007, 09:36 AM   #217
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 28,206
Local Time: 01:36 PM
It defies all logic to think and believe that anyone would freely choose to be homosexual when you consider all they are subjected to in this world. It just makes no sense to me.
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 06-22-2007, 01:12 PM   #218
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,715
Local Time: 01:36 PM
i wonder, though, how many gay people would "choose" to be straight, if they could; and, likewise, how many straight people would "choose" to be gay.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 06-22-2007, 01:24 PM   #219
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
2861U2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: watching the Cubs
Posts: 4,268
Local Time: 12:36 PM
Explain to me this. What about people who have been in relationships with both sexes? If they were indeed born gay like you say, werent they choosing to be straight when dating someone of the opposite sex?

Or are bisexuals a completely different story?

ETA: Hey, 1000 posts!
2861U2 is offline  
Old 06-22-2007, 01:29 PM   #220
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2
Explain to me this. What about people who have been in relationships with both sexes? If they were indeed born gay like you say, werent they choosing to be straight when dating someone of the opposite sex?

Or are bisexuals a completely different story?

If you lived in a world that told you you were wrong, wouldn't you at least try at some point to be "normal". If this world said being you were wrong, and people would beat you just for being you, you were denied rights just because of who you are, I'm positive you would at least try for a short while to pretend you were someone else.
__________________

BVS is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×