Go Obama! - Page 47 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-08-2009, 04:18 PM   #921
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperU2 View Post
I dunno, a number of younger employees surveyed said they choose that option. When I was among them there were at least 5 other people doing the same thing at my company alone.
Oh, I understand the "logic", if you're young you don't think you need it, it's a waste of money... until something happens.

When I was 22 and a college student my parents switched me from their insurance to a student insurance between the switch there were three days that I wouldn't be covered, that three days coincided with a ski trip where I fractured two vertebrae... never been injured before in my life.
__________________

BVS is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 04:43 PM   #922
Refugee
 
zooropop40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Interference is called Interference because it interferes on my ability to live a normal life...
Posts: 1,583
Local Time: 11:31 PM
Republicans dont believe in "small government" - they just say they do. Their actions show something quite different. I also do not think that democrats believe in "Big Government"

My view, and I am a liberal, is that government should only be involved in areas that cannot be left to the private sector- to me those areas are:

Education, Environmental protections, and Health Care. Almost everything else should be left to the free market. And there should be NO government involved in people's personal choices (i.e. gay marriage, abortion, etc...)

If you ask me conservative's believe in bigger government and LESS freedom- for instance look at it this way:

Conservative's believe in Gov interference (hehe i said "interference" ) in people's personal lives and choices to uphold this so-called leave it to beaver type "family values." Yet they believe in minimal regulation in the Free market while they funnel money into big business and corporations leaving the middle class out to dry and justifying it by saying that "the freer the market- the freer the people"

The truth is that yes, a free market is important to freedom... but at the same time, when has being a health care slave to insurance companies been considered freedom? When has not being able to start a small business because of large tax cuts and unfair advantages going to corporations been considered "freedom?" When has an education system that is crumbling with less government funding or involvement been considered freedom? When has not being able to marry the person you love been considered freedom?

Government and freedom can coincide. Freedom is not the opposite of Government. And smart, effective, and efficient government based around the people to SERVE the people can mean more progress. Conservatives just try to hold all this back to serve the few rich corporations who they defend instead of the majority of americans, and then justify it by calling it "less government"

just my $0.02
__________________

zooropop40 is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 04:50 PM   #923
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Jeannieco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: If the moonlight caught you crying on Killiney Bay oh sing your song let your song be sung
Posts: 4,992
Local Time: 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
yes!

"look at me, im a fucking idiot! hehehehe"

people laugh about their igorance, like it's cute that they cant correctly fill out a basic form with a couple of questions.....
Ya, they are proud of it. It's the Sarah Palin crowd. Sorry but it's true. Come on, the woman thought Africa was a country for crying out loud, and she has followers that want her elected because she is "relatable".

Most of the right has learned, with the exception of maybe Megan McCain, from Fox and Rush and Bill O, and Hannity,
that being smart is "elitist" and somehow unamerican. That we from the blue states don't believe in God and if we do we are not the right kind of Christian or whatever, and that we can't be trusted becasue we are educated yankees. What a steaming pile of crap. It's the same pile of poop that was waiting for Obama when he moved to the WH. and now he is getting blamed for the stench that is still lingering in the air. It's incredibly frustrating.
Jeannieco is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 04:52 PM   #924
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Jeannieco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: If the moonlight caught you crying on Killiney Bay oh sing your song let your song be sung
Posts: 4,992
Local Time: 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zooropop40 View Post
Republicans dont believe in "small government" - they just say they do. Their actions show something quite different. I also do not think that democrats believe in "Big Government"

My view, and I am a liberal, is that government should only be involved in areas that cannot be left to the private sector- to me those areas are:

Education, Environmental protections, and Health Care. Almost everything else should be left to the free market. And there should be NO government involved in people's personal choices (i.e. gay marriage, abortion, etc...)

If you ask me conservative's believe in bigger government and LESS freedom- for instance look at it this way:

Conservative's believe in Gov interference (hehe i said "interference" ) in people's personal lives and choices to uphold this so-called leave it to beaver type "family values." Yet they believe in minimal regulation in the Free market while they funnel money into big business and corporations leaving the middle class out to dry and justifying it by saying that "the freer the market- the freer the people"

The truth is that yes, a free market is important to freedom... but at the same time, when has being a health care slave to insurance companies been considered freedom? When has not being able to start a small business because of large tax cuts and unfair advantages going to corporations been considered "freedom?" When has an education system that is crumbling with less government funding or involvement been considered freedom? When has not being able to marry the person you love been considered freedom?

Government and freedom can coincide. Freedom is not the opposite of Government. And smart, effective, and efficient government based around the people to SERVE the people can mean more progress. Conservatives just try to hold all this back to serve the few rich corporations who they defend instead of the majority of americans, and then justify it by calling it "less government"

just my $0.02
Jeannieco is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 06:17 PM   #925
Blue Crack Supplier
 
coolian2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hamilton (No longer STD capital of NZ)
Posts: 42,934
Local Time: 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VintagePunk View Post
My daughter and I were discussing the US health care issue last night, along with this thread specifically, and noted that (just an observation, no judgment) in general, many US citizens seem much more paranoid about steps their government take than do citizens of any other democracy we could think of. In Canada, even when citizens are ideologically opposed to the party in power, although we might not agree with their policies or like every decision they come to, there's not this pervasive feeling that the government is out to get us/do us harm/invade our privacy. We talked about how the US was pretty much founded on anti-government sentiment, and how it's carried over to present day.

I just find it amazing that people would be willing to put their trust in a private, for profit company to have their best interests in mind, before the government. Besides that, I guess I really don't have a point, but I'd be interested in reading any comments that this might generate.
i'm trying to come up with a paragraph or even just a sentence that adds my thoughts to this, but i'd simply be echoing your post entirely.
coolian2 is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 07:16 PM   #926
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,892
Local Time: 11:31 PM
What is the saddest thing is that the Right (and that includes INDY and 2861 right here) seem to have no intention of even providing a reasonable alternative to Obama's plan. That's sad, because I have a lot of reservatons about the current plan, but the Right has simply dropped the ball on providing any alternative beyond "everything's fine the way it is."

You guys have completely abdicated your responsiblity as citizens of this country to get involved in this process in a reasonable and informed way.

Will these scare tactics and hyperbolic nonsense actually be successful in blocking meaningful reform. I hope not--not because the Democrat's plan is a good one--but simply because the reasons being presented--the partisan crap that has been perpetuated right in this thread--for opposing it are ridiculous!
maycocksean is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 07:28 PM   #927
Blue Crack Distributor
 
VintagePunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In a dry and waterless place
Posts: 55,738
Local Time: 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolian2 View Post
i'm trying to come up with a paragraph or even just a sentence that adds my thoughts to this, but i'd simply be echoing your post entirely.
It was actually your posts a page or two back that got me thinking about this, because you sounded as incredulous about all this as I feel. I'm not sure that many US citizens realize that a great deal of the democratic world does seem to have a somewhat tempered at times, but ultimately innate trust in their governments that, worst case scenario, they won't completely fuck things up, and best case, that their government really does want to do what's best for its citizens, and make the nation as good and effective as it can be for most people. It's just such a different mindset than many of us are accustomed to.
VintagePunk is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 08:24 PM   #928
Blue Crack Supplier
 
No spoken words's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Where do YOU live?
Posts: 43,247
Local Time: 08:31 PM
But how many politicians with the means and desire to rise to the top of the political heap here in the States demonstrate a desire to truly do what's best for the citizens of the US as opposed to what's best for them or more importantly their party? I mean, did you trust the government of this country prior to 1/20/09? I sure as fuck didn't.

I don't trust/have faith in the people doing the voting, let alone those they vote for.

I wish I did.
No spoken words is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 08:45 PM   #929
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
What is the saddest thing is that the Right (and that includes INDY and 2861 right here) seem to have no intention of even providing a reasonable alternative to Obama's plan. That's sad, because I have a lot of reservatons about the current plan, but the Right has simply dropped the ball on providing any alternative beyond "everything's fine the way it is."

You guys have completely abdicated your responsiblity as citizens of this country to get involved in this process in a reasonable and informed way.

Will these scare tactics and hyperbolic nonsense actually be successful in blocking meaningful reform. I hope not--not because the Democrat's plan is a good one--but simply because the reasons being presented--the partisan crap that has been perpetuated right in this thread--for opposing it are ridiculous!

Well this is exactly what I was saying during the whole tea party debacle. They're protesting, shouting, etc but 3/4 of them have no clue why they are there and 100% of them never offered an alternative.

You notice no one actually argue's that our current system is great, because they would be laughed at... It's nothing but partisan bullshit, is what it comes down to.
BVS is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 10:11 PM   #930
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 05:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2861U2 View Post
Violence At Townhall - Against A Conservative; Six Arrested, Including a Reporter | NewsBusters.org

We have some video of the attack. It appears that it is members of the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) doing at least some of the dirty work.

But it's conservatives who engage in violence and hate speech, right?

The Saint Louis Post-Dispatch is reporting that one of their own, reporter Jake Wagman, was one of six people arrested in connection with the beating of a conservative activist outside of a town hall forum held by Democrat Congressman Russ Carnahan.

According to Dawn Majors, a Post-Dispatch photojournalist who witnessed everything unfold, an officer said that Wagman had been "interfering."

From the article:

Kenneth Gladney, a 38-year-old conservative activist from St. Louis, said he was attacked by some of those arrested as he handed out yellow flags with “Don't tread on me” printed on them. He spoke to the Post-Dispatch from the emergency room of the St. John's Mercy Medical Center, where he said he was waiting to be treated for injuries to his knee, back, elbow, shoulder and face that he suffered in the attack. Gladney, who is black, said one of his attackers, also a black man, used a racial slur against him before the attack started.

"It just seems there's no freedom of speech without being attacked," he said.

That is some list of injuries, which means it must have been some beating. And Gladney says he was attacked by "some of those arrested," which means there were probably more in the mob than just that.

And let us not overlook nor forget the racial slur Gladney additionally endured.

Two of those were arrested on suspicion of assault, one of resisting arrest and three on suspicion of committing peace disturbances.

To be very fair, Wagman of the Post-Dispatch could have simply been in the way while trying to shoot video of the assault; the article does not say.

We'll see how widely this is reported by the Lamestream Media, as it certainly fails to fit into their Conservative Haters template.


------------

I can't wait to hear what Olbermann and the Daily Kos say about this!

So comparing these protesters to Nazis, Brownshirts, political terrorists and Timothy McVeigh wasn't enough? They have to start physically attacking them now? Is it November 2010 yet?

Quote:
Glenn Beck jokes about putting poison in Nancy Pelosi's wine
Saturday, August 08, 2009





-- by Dave

Glenn Beck had a glass of wine with Nancy Pelosi on Thursday night.

Of course, it wasn't actually Pelosi. It was some poor Fox employee made to sit across the desk from Beck with a cardboard Pelosi mask, holding a glass of juice of some kind that was serving as a stand-in for wine.

It was all meant to spoof Pelosi for supposedly listening only to "millionaire contributors" instead of her constituents.

But then he tossed in a little "joke":


Beck: I just want you to drink it. Drink it. [Laughs] Drink it! I really just wanted to thank you for having us over here to wine country. You know, to be invited, I thought you had to be a major Democratic donor or longtime friend of yours, which I'm not. Oh, ah, by the way, I put poison in your -- no I --


Funny, it seems like only a couple of days ago Beck was imploring his viewers not to resort to acts of violence. (It was.) And now he's encouraging violence by joking about poisoning the Speaker of the House.

Cross-posted at Crooks and Liars.

6:33 PM Spotlight



Unrated

Comment (0)


Are Republicans and their thugs killing off the Town Hall as a democratic forum?






-- by Dave

Does anyone remember when Town Hall forums were civil affairs that gave citizens a chance to speak freely to their elected representatives in a civil conversation?

Yeah, that would have been last week. In the days since, Republicans and their astroturf gangs of protesters have transformed town halls into outlets for their prearranged shoutfests ginned up by Fox talkers.

The old town-hall forum may never be the same. And the country is the worse for it.

Check out the ugliness yesterday in Tampa Bay. It certainly fits the blueprint for action laid out early on in this effort: Disrupt, distract, and destroy any chance for an actual civil and informed conversation. In other words, demolish the entire purpose of a town-hall forum.

As Paul Krugman puts it:


Some commentators have tried to play down the mob aspect of these scenes, likening the campaign against health reform to the campaign against Social Security privatization back in 2005. But there’s no comparison. I’ve gone through many news reports from 2005, and while anti-privatization activists were sometimes raucous and rude, I can’t find any examples of congressmen shouted down, congressmen hanged in effigy, congressmen surrounded and followed by taunting crowds.

And I can’t find any counterpart to the death threats at least one congressman has received.

... [T]he driving force behind the town hall mobs is probably the same cultural and racial anxiety that’s behind the “birther” movement, which denies Mr. Obama’s citizenship. Senator Dick Durbin has suggested that the birthers and the health care protesters are one and the same; we don’t know how many of the protesters are birthers, but it wouldn’t be surprising if it’s a substantial fraction.

And cynical political operators are exploiting that anxiety to further the economic interests of their backers.


No one has a problem with right-wingers marching in protest of the health-care plans. That's certainly their right. And no one minds that they choose to participate in these forums. But town halls were never designed to be vehicles for protest. They have always been about enabling real democratic discourse in a civil setting.

When someone's entire purpose in coming out to a town-hall forum is to chant and shout and protest and disrupt, they aren't just expressing their opinions -- they are actively shutting down democracy.

And that, folks, is a classically fascist thing to do.
Orcinus
financeguy is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 10:19 PM   #931
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 05:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2861U2 View Post
But it's conservatives who engage in violence and hate speech, right?
I'm assuming you mean neo-'conservative' here, as in all the posts of yours that I've read on this forum, I've never once seen you argue the genuine conservative case.

In answer to your question, neo-'conservatives' are indeed engaged in violence and hate speech.

Examples of violence include, but are not limited to, massacring hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq, and examples of hate speech include, but are not limited to, demonstrably false and fraudulent claims made by neo-'conservatives' regarding the independent democratic country of Iran- presumably on the say so of the puppet meisters, the Christian Zionists/Likudniks.

In my opinion, neo-'conservatism' should be treated as a psychopathic psychiatric disorder, rather than a genuine political movement.
financeguy is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 10:32 PM   #932
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 05:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strongbow View Post
Whats deranged is the continued ignorance about the threat Saddam posed to the region and the world, and the silly idea that Saddam was really micky mouse and the region and the world would be safer and better off today with him still in power in Iraq. Saddam will not be on the ballot in Iraq in January 2010, and the number of people who consider that to be a huge benefit to the security and stability of Iraq, the region and the world continues to grow.
Quote:
The Iraq war proved to be the Republican Party’s Waterloo. Will the Af-Pak war turn into the Democrats’ Vietnam? The cultists compare Obama to John F. Kennedy, but aside from the glamour factor the resemblance may be closer to Lyndon Johnson, a liberal president with an expansive domestic agenda who let an overseas conflict escalate out of control, in spite of all the efforts of the Best and the Brightest.
‘Culturally Sensitive’ Imperialism by Justin Raimondo -- Antiwar.com
financeguy is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 10:35 PM   #933
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,392
Local Time: 12:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VintagePunk View Post
It was actually your posts a page or two back that got me thinking about this, because you sounded as incredulous about all this as I feel. I'm not sure that many US citizens realize that a great deal of the democratic world does seem to have a somewhat tempered at times, but ultimately innate trust in their governments that, worst case scenario, they won't completely fuck things up, and best case, that their government really does want to do what's best for its citizens, and make the nation as good and effective as it can be for most people. It's just such a different mindset than many of us are accustomed to.

what government has going for it is two things:

1. you can vote people out of office
2. there's a large, well-organized, and ultimately rather effective press covering the workings of the federal government who go into a feeding frenzy at the slightest whiff of corruption

this simply doesn't exist at the state level, save for a few large states with effective newspapers, and it certainly doesn't exist on the same level when it comes to business. in fact, most of the journalists who cover business -- Forbes, WSJ -- are cheerleaders. sure, you'll get a lone journalist like Bethany McLean who basically broke the Enron scandal, but Wall Street simply isn't policed by the press in the way that Congress is.

is Congress bloated and corrupt and wasteful? absolutely. but i think there's greater accountability there than in business.

but it does amaze me, too. coming from an uppity college where lots of my peers have gone on into business and to Wall Street, there is an irrational distrust of all things "government" that is kind of mind boggling.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 10:37 PM   #934
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,392
Local Time: 12:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
demonstrably false and fraudulent claims made by neo-'conservatives' regarding the independent democratic country of Iran- presumably on the say so of the puppet meisters, the Christian Zionists/Likudniks.


you're going to defend the Iranian regime?
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 10:40 PM   #935
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 05:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
in fact, most of the journalists who cover business -- Forbes, WSJ -- are cheerleaders. sure, you'll get a lone journalist like Bethany McLean who basically broke the Enron scandal, but Wall Street simply isn't policed by the press in the way that Congress is.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with this. Forbes and WSJ are not good examples. Bloomberg is a good unbiased resource. MSNBC has a lot of shills but it also has Gasparino.
financeguy is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 10:42 PM   #936
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 05:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
you're going to defend the Iranian regime?
Spare me the faux outrage. The Iranian government is democratically elected. Who the electorate chose to represent them, is really none of our business. How the elected government regulates life in that country is also none of our business. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's previous comments regarding Israel were mistranslated, for political reasons.
financeguy is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 10:43 PM   #937
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,148
Local Time: 12:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
Will these scare tactics and hyperbolic nonsense actually be successful in blocking meaningful reform. I hope not--not because the Democrat's plan is a good one--but simply because the reasons being presented--the partisan crap that has been perpetuated right in this thread--for opposing it are ridiculous!
Has anyone posted the specifics of Obama's plan here? What about the different versions that were in committee in Congress?


The president's problem is not the Republicans. It's moderate Democrats stalling the bill.
Bluer White is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 10:44 PM   #938
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,392
Local Time: 12:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
I wouldn't necessarily agree with this. Forbes and WSJ are not good examples. Bloomberg is a good unbiased resource. MSNBC has a lot of shills but it also has Gasparino.


yes, there is some tough business reporting, but i think it pales in comparison to the scale and scope of tough political reporting that's available.

one could argue that the political reporting still isn't adequate, and i might be inclined to agree, but i think it's light years beyond the business reporting available.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 10:51 PM   #939
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,663
Local Time: 11:31 PM
In a simliar vein as your posted article, financeguy, here's an excellent, excellent piece of reporting and opinion on the current "debate" over health care:

Diemen is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 10:53 PM   #940
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,392
Local Time: 12:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluer White View Post
Has anyone posted the specifics of Obama's plan here? What about the different versions that were in committee in Congress?


The president's problem is not the Republicans. It's moderate Democrats stalling the bill.



while i agree, it seems that the issues in the news the past 48 hours and the discussion now in here has been the so-called "protests" at these town hall meetings and the increased coverage of know-nothing Palinism in many of these protesters, i.e., "don't let the government take away my Medicaid."

agreed on Obama's relatively poor salesmanship so far. though i think that's about to change.

it seems to me that Obama wants to provide a government option for those who are uninsured and underinsured. (i was once underinsured, btw, and thankfully i had insurance when i had my own severe accident). it seems like doing this will cost $1T over 10 years. it's expensive. but it doesn't seem too much more expensive than, say, the Bush prescription entitlement passed by the GOP just a few years ago. and the $1T over 10 years might wind up saving more money by bringing down, for example, visits to the emergency room that are often made by the underinsured and the uninsured. it also seems that the long-term cost forecast for health care is that prices are going to continue to skyrocket, which is going to be a huge drag on the international competitiveness of US companies who have to provide increasingly expensive health care coverage compared to countries where people work for $.75 an hour and no bathroom breaks and the government takes care of health care. it seems like Obama wants the government to shoulder more of the burden of health care in order to help out the business sector. is that so awful?

the question, of course, is how to pay for it.

and now Obama has to kill the rabid, racist fear that's driving the Palin People. thank goodness he's about the most preternaturally gifted communicator in my (relatively young) lifetime. but that might not be enough. we'll see.

and that's my pretty elementary take on it. i've been in a deep dark hole for the past month or so. but that's what i've been able to glean from the news so far.
__________________

Irvine511 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×