Conservative Christians put warning label on Spongebob video...

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cardosino said:

So, first off, you make the sweeping generalization, then you follow it up with "it's not possible to prove it" - I guess if It's not possible to prove it, i'm wondering how you could be so convinced of it to begin with.

You didn't ask for *any* evidence to support my statement - you asked for "empirical evidence." And as I pointed out, I wonder how you propose to go about obtaining empirical evidence of emotions. Perhaps you could explain the form of evidence you're looking for.

And how can I be so convinced of it? I couldn't claim to love someone if I hated something which was a vital part of who they were. It's not like saying "I love you but I don't like the fact that you smoke." Sexuality isn't simply an action, it's not a choice, it's not simply one little part of someone's life you can like or dislike - it's a huge part of who they are and if you hate that then you can't at the same time claim that you love that person.
 
indra said:


I find it interesting that you (and others) seem to think everyone should do as your Jesus and God said (or what their followers think they said, or want them to have said, or whatever), but them you complain when someone else makes what you call a "sweeping generalisation." You don't think that saying "homosexuality is a sin" isn't pretty damned sweeping?

Would you feel better if I prefaced it with "in the Christian belief system" every time ? Sometimes things are a given and we've heard them a million times, and to avoid sounding repetitive and tellign everyone what hey already know for the bazillionth time I didn't qualify my statement. My apologies.

indra said:

I don't care what your god thinks about homosexuality, or marriage,



Well, then maybe any thread with gay mariage is a possible danger to your blood pressure !
:wink:

indra said:


what I want to know is why gay marriages should not be allowed in a SECULAR nation?


I don't have any issue with gay mariage myself, civil unions are already permitted in many places and they already afford many of the same rights (yes, I know, not all). Gay marriage doesn't affect me one iota, so if you're asking me, I don't know. If it's rhetorical, I just wanted a minute of my time !

I can still believe homosexuality is sinful (according to the Christian belief system of course) and really not have any issue with it. Adultery is also considered sinful and I'm not campaigning against that either. It's a question of priorities maybe. I think the whole gay marriage thing is a straw man argument designed by the republicans to win votes because they know the democratic party is too stupid to counter it intelligently and/or to divert discussion to more meaningful topics like say, the war or the economy.




indra said:

If you don't want to recognise same sex marriages in your church, that's just peachy, you don't have to, but what do you get out of preventing same sex civil marriages? I don't tell you what you can and cannot do within your church.

You would have a say if you were a member.

However, since all Christians (regardless of how far left or right they lean) are members of the "civil" society, they also get a say, and if the majority says "no" to gay marriage as they have done in many places, then that's the result of the democratic process. at that ime, doesn't mean yuo give up, rather you live on and fight another day.
 
FizzingWhizzbees said:


You didn't ask for *any* evidence to support my statement - you asked for "empirical evidence." And as I pointed out, I wonder how you propose to go about obtaining empirical evidence of emotions. Perhaps you could explain the form of evidence you're looking for.


As an Engineer, I find that the best data/evidence is that which is not oopen to interpretation or subjectivity. You may feel differently apparently.

FizzingWhizzbees said:

And how can I be so convinced of it? I couldn't claim to love someone if I hated something which was a vital part of who they were. It's not like saying "I love you but I don't like the fact that you smoke." Sexuality isn't simply an action, it's not a choice, it's not simply one little part of someone's life you can like or dislike - it's a huge part of who they are and if you hate that then you can't at the same time claim that you
love that person.


All subjective opinion, not one fact in there.

Using the sam erationale, I say you CAN hate the sin and love the sinner, because the belief system is strong enough to handle it. If you believed the same things, you'd know what I mean.
 
indra said:
I find it interesting that you (and others) seem to think everyone should do as your Jesus and God said (or what their followers think they said, or want them to have said, or whatever), but them you complain when someone else makes what you call a "sweeping generalisation." You don't think that saying "homosexuality is a sin" isn't pretty damned sweeping?

:confused:

If I said making false statements was a sin, wouldn't that be a sweeping generalization as well?
 
cardosino said:
Would you feel better if I prefaced it with "in the Christian belief system" every time ?

No, because at least one poster (thank you dreadsox) has already pointed out that this isn't a universally held Christian belief. "In my belief system" might be more appropriate.
 
cardosino said:
As an Engineer, I find that the best data/evidence is that which is not oopen to interpretation or subjectivity. You may feel differently apparently.

As a social science student, I would question whether any evidence in the social sciences (which this discussion would certainly fall under) can be entirely objective and not open to interpretation. I certainly don't believe that you could provide "empirical evidence" of people's emotions or feelings, which is what you were demanding.
 
nbcrusader said:


:confused:

If I said making false statements was a sin, wouldn't that be a sweeping generalization as well?

So, do Christians believe that making false statements is always a sin, regardless of the circumstance? Would it be a sin to lie to prevent someone finding out about a suprise birthday party? Would it be a sin to lie to prevent someone being hurt? And is there some sort of grading for this - I mean presumably lying on your tax returns is a bit worse than lying about your age to someone you meet in the pub?
 
FizzingWhizzbees said:


No, because at least one poster (thank you dreadsox) has already pointed out that this isn't a universally held Christian belief. "In my belief system" might be more appropriate.

Actually, it IS a universally held Christian belief system. Like the rest of the world's population, Christians are by no means perfect so it's not always carried out properly.

Dreadsox was not able to support his assertion either when called on it. by nbcrusader.
 
cardosino said:


Actually, it IS a universally held Christian belief system. Like the rest of the world's population, Christians are by no means perfect so it's not always carried out properly.

Wow, we have Jesus on the board. For I can't think of anyone else who can make such a statement about a universal held Christian belief.

It's not a universally held Christian belief, but thanks for trying and speaking for the world's Christians.
 
cardosino said:


Actually, it IS a universally held Christian belief system. Like the rest of the world's population, Christians are by no means perfect so it's not always carried out properly.

Dreadsox was not able to support his assertion either when called on it. by nbcrusader.

I'm sorry, were you the same person who just complained about others making sweeping generalisations? The words pot, kettle and black come to mind.

So any Christian who isn't homophobic is failing to carry out their proper Christian responsibilities?
 
cardosino said:


Actually, it IS a universally held Christian belief system. Like the rest of the world's population, Christians are by no means perfect so it's not always carried out properly.

Dreadsox was not able to support his assertion either when called on it. by nbcrusader.

Say what????? Did I miss something????

I was called on something?

or are you standing up and saying that the Episcopal Church is wrong for having a Gay Bishop and a Lesbian Priest?

I would appreciate if you have something to say about my beliefs you try not stirring the pot between myself and another member. NBC and I are pretty secure in our respect for each other.

If youwish to call me out on it....GO FOR IT. I await eagerly.
 
FizzingWhizzbees said:


I'm sorry, were you the same person who just complained about others making sweeping generalisations? The words pot, kettle and black come to mind.

They may come to mind, but they're not being used properly. Here, let me try and explain it differently:

"All Christians are homophobic" - Sweeping Generalization

"It's not possible to hate sin and love the sinner" - Sweeping Generalization

"All Christians are not perfect" - A Fact

"Some Christians are homophobic despite the fact they are not supposed to be" - Fact

"Christianity teaches us to love sinners" - Fact


FizzingWhizzbees said:


So any Christian who isn't homophobic is failing to carry out their proper Christian responsibilities?

By Jove, I think the Youngster has got it !

homophobic: Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.

Again, hate the sin, love the sinner.

Now, you have to open your mind and believe that it is indeed possible to hate the sin and love the sinner, if not, then you are no more open minded than those Christians who would be burning homosexuals at the stake.
 
Dreadsox said:


Say what????? Did I miss something????

I was called on something?

or are you standing up and saying that the Episcopal Church is wrong for having a Gay Bishop and a Lesbian Priest?

I would appreciate if you have something to say about my beliefs you try not stirring the pot between myself and another member. NBC and I are pretty secure in our respect for each other.

If youwish to call me out on it....GO FOR IT. I await eagerly.


I didn't bring your name into the discussion, someone else did.

Still, I do appreciate you using the Episcopal example of just how much some Christians can love a sinner, thanks !
 
If you go back and look at NBC post in response to me...unless I am missing something, he does not view the TOPIC of homosexuality to be a CORE principle of Christianity.

How I am supposed to "suuport my assertion" against a statement of his?

He did not imply as you did, that my church is not carrying out Christianity properly. He asserted in principal we have the same CORE belifs.


If I am missing what you are referring to, then please, quote it for me.
 
cardosino said:

By Jove, I think the Youngster has got it !

homophobic: Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.

Again, hate the sin, love the sinner.

Now, you have to open your mind and believe that it is indeed possible to hate the sin and love the sinner, if not, then you are no more open minded than those Christians who would be burning homosexuals at the stake.

Condescending wanker.

How about you opening your mind and thinking about how it feels to hear someone claiming they love you while at the same time hating you for living your life the only way you know how. How about opening your mind and realising that you can't separate someone's sexuality as just one aspect of that person you can hate - it's not like you can hate someone's choice to smoke, choice to take drugs or choice to eat particular foods and still love them - sexuality isn't a choice, it's not something you can separate out and hate while still loving the person.
 
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BonoVoxSupastar said:


Wow, we have Jesus on the board. For I can't think of anyone else who can make such a statement about a universal held Christian belief.

It's not a universally held Christian belief, but thanks for trying and speaking for the world's Christians.

I'd gladly ready anything you can show which says Christians should indeed hate sinners.
 
cardosino said:



I didn't bring your name into the discussion, someone else did.

Still, I do appreciate you using the Episcopal example of just how much some Christians can love a sinner, thanks !

I appreciate you too.....

But there is a difference between someone using my beliefs as an example, and someone claiming I was called out on something and had nothing to back it up.

You are close to behaving like a troll in this thread as far as I am concerned. You misrepresented the dialogue between NBC and myself and have yet to come up with anything other than lumping my church into the people who are not properly carrying out Christianity.
 
cardosino said:


I'd gladly ready anything you can show which says Christians should indeed hate sinners.

Not what I said, and you know that. I said what you are defining as sin is not a universal belief.

You're twisting words, avoiding questions, and contradicting yourself. So really you're wasting everyone's time unless you learn how to really debate.
 
I think we're forgetting something in all of this. I don't particularly care what specific Christian denominations believe in regards to homosexuality. I don't care what non-Christians care about it either.

Theology aside, there's one thing they're forgetting: homosexuality is not a theory, it is not a theology, it is a FACT. If we are to start legislating discrimination on the basis of what certain conservative religions believe, then why not go all the way?

Many conservative Protestants (Bob Jones III of Bob Jones University is a good example) believe that Roman Catholicism is Satanic. If it's true, then why don't we ban it? Others believe that the only place for women is at home making babies and the New Testament has a clear admonition against women having teaching authority over men....meaning, of course, that female teachers are bad. So why don't we ban that?

Or, if we are going to start digging up Biblical admonitions against women and homosexuals, why don't we start digging up some of the economic pronouncements? Remember Jubilee 2000? It was loosely based on a pronouncement that all debts must be forgiven every 50 years. Boy...would all the supply-siders be pissed off then!

Or why don't I go to the flip side. Roman Catholicism does not recognize any marriage outside of Catholic ones performed within its own church. I would say that, as a Catholic, it is their moral duty to tell all the heretical non-Catholics that they are living in sin with their invalid marriages and bastard children. Likewise, divorce is another "no-no." The legalization of divorce is yet another example of the global "culture of death."

And sure. I love the sinner and hate the sin all the time. Every time I see another sinner lying about the nature of homosexuals and homosexuality, I realize that their unforgiven sin of bearing false witness is just yet another ticket to hell for them. I pray every day that conservative Christians will wake up and realize the truth.

If it is not morally correct to discriminate against Protestants, Catholics, Jews, blacks, and women, it is not morally correct to discriminate against homosexuals. Period. It is the right of every individual to formulate their own morals and ethics, free from others' morality and ethics. You can pretend that homosexuals do not exist (just as I like to pretend that heterosexuals don't exist), but it ignores one clear fact: they do exist.

As for the Bible being an admonition against homosexuality, I disagree. It is no more an admonition against homosexuality than it is a sweeping admonition against heterosexuality. The word and concept of "homosexuality" did not exist until 1874, so any Bible that implicitly or explicitly uses that word is bearing false witness. Period.

The Bible does show examples of destructive same-sex and opposite sex behavior, but how such "destruction" is interpreted is wide. I can show you one very explicit example, as you might be surprised to realize that there is a heterosexual analogue to Sodom and Gomorrah:

"While they were enjoying themselves, the men of the city, who were corrupt, surrounded the house and beat on the door. They said to the old man whose house it was, "Bring out your guest, that we may abuse him."

The owner of the house went out to them and said, "No, my brothers; do not be so wicked. Since this man is my guest, do not commit this crime.

Rather let me bring out my maiden daughter or his concubine. Ravish them, or do whatever you want with them; but against the man you must not commit this wanton crime."

When the men would not listen to his host, the husband seized his concubine and thrust her outside to them. They had relations with her and abused her all night until the following dawn, when they let her go.

Then at daybreak the woman came and collapsed at the entrance of the house in which her husband was a guest, where she lay until the morning.

When her husband rose that day and opened the door of the house to start out again on his journey, there lay the woman, his concubine, at the entrance of the house with her hands on the threshold.

He said to her, "Come, let us go"; but there was no answer. So the man placed her on an ass and started out again for home.

On reaching home, he took a knife to the body of his concubine, cut her into twelve pieces, and sent them throughout the territory of Israel.

Everyone who saw this said, "Nothing like this has been done or seen from the day the Israelites came up from the land of Egypt to this day. Take note of it, and state what you propose to do." -- Judges 19:22-30

Notice the biggest difference between Sodom and Gomorrah and Gibeah: in Sodom and Gomorrah, a homosexual gang rape supposedly takes place. In Gibeah, a heterosexual gang rape supposedly takes place. But the reactions to contemporary audiences (if they even bother to know that Judges 19 exists) would be that Sodom and Gomorrah is a sweeping admonition against homosexuality, while Gibeah is an example of a heterosexual rape. Of course, these passages are neither: the sin, as stated in about 3 or 4 different places in the Old Testament is a violation against hospitality customs, not sex. But if "sex" is to be involved, there is one clear admonition: God does not approve of rape.

Do realize that every supposed sweeping generalization against homosexuality takes on two characteristics in the Bible:

1) It is either done in the context of idol worship, or

2) It is done in the context of rape.

I would think that we can all agree that idolatry and rape are wrong. Unfortunately, just as people now have fears and prejudices against homosexuals, they had them then 2000 years ago. It certainly doesn't mean it was right then, and it certainly doesn't mean it is right now.

I will take a clear stand against any conservative Christian who wishes to make a sweeping generalization about homosexuals or homosexuality, because it is plain wrong. It is wrong to abuse the Bible to justify fears and prejudices, just as it is wrong to defame homosexuals with lies to justify Biblical abuse.

If people would take the time to combat poverty with the same vigor as they do to fight abortion or gay rights, we would be a lot closer to eliminating poverty. As it stands, I think that the priorities of many Christians are very off base.

But, as they say, "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

Melon
 
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I can't remember where I saw this, whose sermon it was, but I kept it anyway for future reference:

"As we study the life of Christ, his attitudes about sin and sinners are made very clear to us. It is obvious that Jesus hates sin. On the other hand, it is quite apparent that Jesus loves sinners. He was often seen in the company of sinners, not for the purpose of participating in their sins, but rather to offer them forgiveness of sins. He hated sin yet loved sinners so much that he came to earth to offer himself as a sacrifice for sin (John 3:16). The old law demanded a life of sinless perfection. Jesus met that demand. He was tempted in all points just as we are, yet never sinned (Hebrews 4:15). He thus nailed the law to the cross (Colossians 2:14). He took it out of the way and gave us the new covenant in its place. The requirement of sinless perfection was replaced with the requirement of a faith response to Jesus. This faith response not only includes belief in Jesus, but obedience to everything he commands us. True Bible faith is not passive, it is active. It requires action in the form of obedience.

We live in a sinful world. We live in a world filled with the sin that Jesus hates. Today’s world is filled with sinners. We live in a world of sinners whom Jesus loves. We must make our attitudes toward sin and sinners the same as those of Jesus. We must hate the sin and love the sinner.

Some of today’s sins are being promoted by national leaders in the name of progress, open-mindedness, or social reform. Two of these sins are particularly repulsive to Christians: abortion and homosexuality. These are promoted in the name of freedom of choice and alternative life-styles. Both of these sins are condemned in the Bible. Abortion is nothing short of murder (see Exodus 21). It is not just a matter of a woman’s choice. Homosexuality is clearly condemned in the Bible (see Romans 1). This very sin was responsible for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (see Genesis 19).

The point is this: Christians must hate these two sins in no uncertain terms. However, we must love the sinners. We should not even think of doing them bodily harm. We must make every effort to change their thinking by teaching them what God’s word plainly says about these matters.

It is obvious as we mention these unmentionable subjects that some Christians hate the sins, as they should. But they also hate the sinners! This attitude must be changed. This is not the attitude of Jesus!
Hate the sin, but love the sinner!"
 
melon said:
Many conservative Protestants (Bob Jones III of Bob Jones University is a good example) believe that Roman Catholicism is Satanic. If it's true, then why don't we ban it?
Many... how many? Anything to back this up?
 
Macfistowannabe said:
Many... how many? Anything to back this up?

Sure. Do a Google search, and, plus, here's a good text by the Catholic League:

http://www.catholicleague.org/research/anticat_internet.htm

I don't always agree with the Catholic League (they are far too conservative for my liking), but they were founded to combat anti-Catholic sentiment that is a hallmark of American cultural history.

An example of something offline is a local Baptist church (and I know that Baptist churches are locally-administered, so I am not saying that this is true of ALL Baptists) that claimed that Catholics lust for the blood of Jesus by hanging a crucifix and called them "cannibals" for believing in transubstantiation, which believes that the bread and wine are physically transformed into the body and blood of Jesus Christ, versus the Protestant view (formulated by Martin Luther) that Jesus is merely spiritually present in the bread and wine.

Melon
 
[Q]This very sin was responsible for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (see Genesis 19).
[/Q]

Sorry...homosexuality was not the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Play it again Sam.....

This example is getting old.
 
My prayers have been answered......

May they not be short lived!

Welcome back Melon.
 
cardosino said:
Some of today’s sins are being promoted by national leaders in the name of progress, open-mindedness, or social reform. Two of these sins are particularly repulsive to Christians: abortion and homosexuality. These are promoted in the name of freedom of choice and alternative life-styles. Both of these sins are condemned in the Bible. Abortion is nothing short of murder (see Exodus 21). It is not just a matter of a woman’s choice. Homosexuality is clearly condemned in the Bible (see Romans 1). This very sin was responsible for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (see Genesis 19).

The last sentence merely substantiates my last point. The writer of this article ignores the lessons of Gibeah, which was equally destroyed for the gang rape of a female concubine. Is this now a sweeping admonition against ALL heterosexual activity?

Romans 1 also goes back to my original point. It is the description of a pagan cult ritual [and the original Greek gives that away, rather than biased English translations] that was very common in the Roman Empire; hence, idolatry. Secondly, though, the writer ignores that Romans 1 is merely the preamble for the lesson spelled out in Romans 2:

"Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment [against those in Romans 1]. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.--Romans 2:1

All Pauline epistles are easily, easily misinterpreted, as the beginning of all Pauline epistles are merely to appeal to the sensibilities of those he is trying to convert; which, in the case of Romans, are the Jewish Christians of Rome. The true lesson of Romans is not the first chapter. On the contrary, St. Paul rejects the legalism on which Jewish Christians judge others in favor of the pillar of all Pauline theology:

"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law."--Romans 13:8-10

Just because "Christians" (and I take great offense to the monopolization of that term by conservatives) feel "repulsed" by homosexuality, does not mean it was ever a Biblical priority. Instead, it is merely abusing the Bible to justify prejudice. The Book of Exodus was once used to justify slavery prior to the Civil War; and St. Paul's clear misogyny was once evoked to try and prevent women's suffrage prior to 1920.

And I stick to my original point: the prejudice and discrimination against homosexuals is unequivocably and morally wrong.

Melon
 
cardosino said:
We must make every effort to change their thinking by teaching them what God’s word plainly says about these matters.

This "hate the sin, love the sinner" line just keeps getting better. So you mean as well as this fake love, I'll be treated to neverending lectures on "God's word"? Man, I can hardly wait. :rolleyes:
 
Dreadsox said:
My prayers have been answered......

May they not be short lived!

Welcome back Melon.

I am working my best to be constructive and to choose my battles carefully. Additionally, I am working my best to never ever construct a personal attack again. God willing, I shall find the strength to write effectively.

I will also never let conservatives dictate the agenda. Never again. That is my lesson from the last election: if you expect your values and beliefs to win out, you must unequivocably believe them to be true. No more postmodernist wishy-washy political correctness. There's clear "right" and "wrong," and I am going to do my best to show that liberal values are the correct ones.

Melon
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Oh your in for a treat Mac.

Welcome back Melon.
Asking someone to provide a source is not insinuating that I strongly disagree with them. Perhaps Melon has made a valid point by answering my question. By the way Melon, thanks for the response.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
Asking someone to provide a source is not insinuating that I strongly disagree with them. Perhaps Melon has made a valid point by answering my question. By the way Melon, thanks for the response.

I said you're in a treat, that's it, let's not read anything into it.:huh:
 
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