2016 US Presidential Election Pt. III

[iron yuppie]

If he is a plant for HRC, the risk she is incurring during what is already a very winnable election would be insane. It would come out and it would ruin her.

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

I don't think that his supporters hate Mexicans or Muslims

Bullshit.

You are correct that people on the right enjoy seeing progressives squirm (though saying the left "created" Trump is a huge stretch), but to say there isn't genuine fear and distrust of minorities on the part of the base that Trump is appealing to is some combination of denial or naivety. It's certainly not true.

[martha]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

Bullshit.

It is bullshit, but saying it makes him feel better about supporting such a piece of shit like Trump.

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

If he is a plant for HRC, the risk she is incurring during what is already a very winnable election would be insane. It would come out and it would ruin her.

And thus God created the first Republican to not believe in Clinton led conspiracy theories.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

I think Trump was generally surprised how quickly he shot up in the polls. He's a vehicle for his supporters to vent at the PC culture and their own party. I don't think that his supporters hate Mexicans or Muslims . . . I think they hate Progressives. They love watching them go bonkers, when he says something incendiary. Obama and the Left gave birth to Trump.

Garbage.

Your party built an entire regime based on distrist of the government and fear of others.

Your party built a media channel that gave a microphone to monsters.

Your party built up people who challenged the legitimacy of a President based on a supposed faked birth certificate. It was Trump who was one of the leaders of this bogus charge.

Now, you act surprised when your party is being led by a crazy monster and then turn and blame it on Obama? Is that how this works? Do you blame battered women too?

This circus began with Clinton-era hate radio (Rush) and has only intensified with the Internet and 24/7 news.

Your monkeys, your circus. Enjoy.

But don't blame me. Don't blame Obama. Blame the crazy that these people have marinated in for 20 years.

[bono_212]

:like:

[Oregoropa]

Progressives think Conservatives are batshit crazy

Conservatives think Progressives are batshit crazy

Here's to a fun 11 months ! Cheers


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[Oregoropa]

We're such a hateful mean country, right? Progressives are worried about about a "Muslim backlash". These are the 2013 FBI hate crime stats of a religious nature. This adds up to 184 incidents of hate crimes against Muslims in a country of 330,000,000 million. Meanwhile the Jews take the brunt of hate crimes in the US


Of the 1,140 victims of anti-religious hate crimes:

56.8 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders’ anti-Jewish bias.

16.1 percent were victims of anti-Islamic (Muslim) biashate crime

6.2 percent were victims of bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group).

6.1 percent were victims of anti-Catholic bias.

2.5 percent were victims of anti-Protestant bias.

1.2 percent were victims of anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.

11.0 percent were victims of bias against other religions (anti-other religion). (Based on Table 1.)


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[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

He's a vehicle for his supporters to vent at the PC culture and their own party.

For fuck's sake, people really need to quit pulling out the "PC culture" complaint whenever people call out offensive speech. It isn't being "PC" to say that the suggestion to ban all Muslims is beyond stupid. Nor is it being "PC" to object to a description of Mexicans as rapists.

It's called being a decent, intelligent human being instead of acting like a prejudiced, bigoted dumbass. Even if Trump himself is a plant, or is just saying this stuff for the hell of it, or whatever, the problem is that there are people who are genuinely agreeing with the BS he spouts. They think his ideas are actually good. They think his plans are legitimate. They agree with his offensive descriptions of an entire group of people.

That. Is. A. Problem.

Case in point:

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

I don't think that his supporters hate Mexicans or Muslims . . .

There's been news footage from this week where people at rallies have said, with a completely straight face, that they agree with Trump's suggestion to ban all Muslims. There was an actual anti-Islam rally somewhere this week where the protesters came completely armed with guns (because of COURSE they did), and they talked about how they wanted to stop the "Islamization" of America.

And then there was this charming bit of idiocy about the debate over allowing Syrian refugees into the U.S., courtesy of a Nevada politician named Michele Fiore a while back:

https://nonprofitquarterly.org/2015/...-hits-new-low/

So yeah, they clearly kinda do. Try again.

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

I think they hate Progressives. They love watching them go bonkers, when he says something incendiary. Obama and the Left gave birth to Trump.

Sooooooooooo...maybe try NOT saying the incendiary things in the first place? Develop something called a filter, and tact, and general basic human decency? That might help. If Trump and other Republicans are joking with their more incendiary comments, it's not really all that funny, and if they're serious? And if voters are actually agreeing with them when they say such outlandish things? That's even worse.

Others have already addressed your whole "Obama and the left gave birth to Trump", thing, and much better than I could, so I'll just second their statements.

You really gotta love it. Reverend Wright says some "incendiary" things, and there was a HUGE outcry from the right for Obama to comment on his words and condemn them, otherwise he would somehow be endorsing what Wright said. Anytime extremist Muslims do something horrible, I hear the right always saying, "The Muslim community needs to speak out against this!"

But Cruz says some BS about "transgender leftism" in relation to the Planned Parenthood shooter, Huckabee makes deeply ignorant and offensive "jokes" about transgender people in bathrooms, Trump calls Mexicans rapists, Fiorina rants about the "abortion industry" and other nonsense like that (and makes up complete and total lies in relation to the Planned Parenthood videos), Carson says all the weird shit he says...

...and crickets from the right. Hm. Shouldn't they be speaking out more against this stuff, the way they expected Obama to with Wright or the Muslim community with whatever extremist Muslims do? I mean, fair's fair, right?

Sure, the other Republican politicians immediately spoke out against the "ban all Muslims" comment, and I'm glad they did. But I just wish they could be that outspoken anytime someone else from their party says something that's offensive or stupid or flat out untrue. And if they're not, then they need to quit harping on Obama or Muslims to do the same for any offensive or stupid stuff said or done by black people or extremist Muslims.

[Axver]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

Progressives think Conservatives are batshit crazy

Conservatives think Progressives are batshit crazy

Here's to a fun 11 months ! Cheers


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You do realise, I hope, that in the rest of the world, everybody thinks your "conservatives" are batshit crazy far right extremists and the Democrats are a reasonably conservative party.

But have fun being a regressive global pariah that gives our comedians endless punchlines.

[Oregoropa]

Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel

For fuck's sake, people really need to quit pulling out the "PC culture" complaint whenever people call out offensive speech.

Huckabee makes deeply ignorant and offensive "jokes" about transgender people in bathrooms.

So I read that joke. I get what he said. Wasn't particularly funny, but it's not the "doomsday" statement you make it out to be. Is it considered heteronormative, patriarchal, maybe some new buzz word? I can't keep track anymore.

This is a prime example of why Americans have to walk on eggshells. Anything and Everything can be construed as offensive. This is The PC Culture I reference.

This country is not a Liberal Arts College.

This election won't be decided on gender identity. People are going to vote based on what they see every other Friday in their bank account and if they feel safe at home and at work.

Progressives never discriminate against anybody, under any circumstances, or ever state that anybody's ideas or worldview are wrong, except for those who disagree with progressivism.


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[Axver]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

This country is not a Liberal Arts College.

More's the pity. Much of your country could use the education.

if they feel safe at home and at work.

And, as it happens, they would be safer if they stopped electing xenophobic warmongers.

But hey, if you think being a global pariah is cool, keep electing crazy, hate-filled, bigoted extremists. I'm sure that'll go well.

[Kieran McConville]

I'm still voting for Dukakis.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

So I read that joke. I get what he said. Wasn't particularly funny, but it's not the "doomsday" statement you make it out to be. Is it considered heteronormative, patriarchal, maybe some new buzz word? I can't keep track anymore.

I don't use those buzz terms when crafting my arguments, so you're talking to the wrong person with that.

And really? You get what he said there? There was nothing TO get. The point he was trying to make made no sense and further fed some people's beliefs that somehow people will "pretend" to be transgender as a means of sneaking into a bathroom and getting all perverted or some such nonsense like that.

And it shows a complete ignorance and lack of understanding of what being a transgendered person actually is, which, again, does not help-a lot of voters already have a lot of nasty misconceptions about transgendered people. "Jokes" like Huckabee's don't help.

The joke was also really creepy, because he said something about how he would've "pretended to be a girl" to get into locker rooms in school. Which, ew.

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

This is a prime example of why Americans have to walk on eggshells. Anything and Everything can be construed as offensive. This is The PC Culture I reference.

Oh, get over it. You can say whatever pops into your head, but be prepared to be called out on it if it mocks or degrades an entire group of people who are already struggling with enough discrimination and ignorance from people who don't understand them as it is. There is no need to make fun of transgendered people or turn them into some sort of scare tactic for your policies. There is no reason to call Mexicans as a whole rapists. There is no reason to say that Muslims are all terrorist sympathizers.

Also, I find it really laughable when conservatives whine about people being easily offended. "War on Christmas", anyone? "Christian values under attack"? Someone makes a joke about Christians on TV and the right has a hissy fit. Oh, no, a nativity scene isn't going up, THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! "God is being taken out of schools, that's why things are falling apart." And so on and so on.

Yeah. Don't even try to deny you guys don't do the same thing.

(For the record, I don't think mocking Christians simply for being Christian is a good thing. I'm not offended by nativity scenes being put up in people's yards or downtown. I'm just giving a few examples for comparison.)

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

This country is not a Liberal Arts College.

This election won't be decided on gender identity. People are going to vote based on what they see every other Friday in their bank account and if they feel safe at home and at work.

If that's the case, then they should be supporting things like gun control or raising the minimum wage.

And no, gender identity may not be THE big issue in this election. But that is an issue that will come up in politics at some point, if not on the federal level then certainly on a state or local one. And it'd be nice to know we have politicians in office who treat transgendered people with the respect and dignity they deserve, instead of mock them and reinforce stereotypes and other ignorant beliefs about them.

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

Progressives never discriminate against anybody, under any circumstances, or ever state that anybody's ideas or worldview are wrong, except for those who disagree with progressivism.

Yeah, no. We have a problem with ignorance and flat out stupidity, and I would hope and think any conservative worth their salt would feel the same way. That has nothing to do with "progressivism" or "liberalism" or whatever other thing you want to spout (hey, by the way, I thought you had a problem with people using "-ism"s to describe things they didn't like). Like I said above, it has to do with being a decent human being. Not mocking or discriminating against people because of their race or ethnicity or sexual orientation or gender identity or religion is a GOOD thing.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

Progressives think Conservatives are batshit crazy

Conservatives think Progressives are batshit crazy

Here's to a fun 11 months ! Cheers


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There's a big difference though. I'm not the one falling for erroneous and conspiracy lead websites, I'm not the one tweeting stats designed by a hate group, I'm not the one attacking science as a whole, I'm not the one defending grain silos, I'm not the one accusing you or your candidate of being born somewhere or being a religion that he/she is not.

One side has chosen to actively ignore provable facts. One side can have an egg placed in their hand, but will seek out the website that tells them it's an apple.


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[BVS]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

We're such a hateful mean country, right? Progressives are worried about about a "Muslim backlash". These are the 2013 FBI hate crime stats of a religious nature. This adds up to 184 incidents of hate crimes against Muslims in a country of 330,000,000 million. Meanwhile the Jews take the brunt of hate crimes in the US


Of the 1,140 victims of anti-religious hate crimes:

56.8 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders’ anti-Jewish bias.

16.1 percent were victims of anti-Islamic (Muslim) biashate crime

6.2 percent were victims of bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group).

6.1 percent were victims of anti-Catholic bias.

2.5 percent were victims of anti-Protestant bias.

1.2 percent were victims of anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.

11.0 percent were victims of bias against other religions (anti-other religion). (Based on Table 1.)


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What exactly was the point of this scarecrow?


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[Diemen]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

These are the 2013 FBI hate crime stats of a religious nature. [snip]


Of the 1,140 victims of anti-religious hate crimes:

56.8 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders’ anti-Jewish bias.

16.1 percent were victims of anti-Islamic (Muslim) biashate crime

6.2 percent were victims of bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group).

6.1 percent were victims of anti-Catholic bias.

2.5 percent were victims of anti-Protestant bias.

1.2 percent were victims of anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.

11.0 percent were victims of bias against other religions (anti-other religion). (Based on Table 1.)

Note that these statistics are from 2013, well before the presidential campaigns swung into full gear. Also, notice how you downplay that Muslims are the second most attacked group.

Meanwhile, in the present day, law enforcement agencies around the nation have noted a dramatic increase in anti-Muslim attacks/threats/defacement of property, etc. All of it being fueled in large part by the unhinged, fear-based paranoia being spewed by nearly all of the Republican presidential candidates.

[Oregoropa]

Everybody. It's a discussion forum about the election. I enjoy talking with several posters on here who seem to understand that it is more fun to talk about the horse race and view it as a sport. Talk policy differences and such.

But for many other posters, this place is a dumping ground for all your huff post whipped up grievances and anger.

Moonlit - You're proving my point about progressives. Every worldview is applauded except those from those in opposition to progressivism (yes I used that term, because classical liberalism would allow for open dialogue and not shut it down because they think the other side is a phobe). You're going right to the Lefty playbook. Pick a target, isolate it, label it, mock it, rinse, wash, repeat.

Glad you brought up issues to debate. 15 dollar min wage. My view, if enacted in a locale businesses will simply leave hurting those employees designed to help in the first place. They can't afford it. Congress, states should enact a graduated raise percentage that goes up every year.

Gun control. Tough to write a whole dissertation in a single reply. I'm assuming you want more control rather than less. Are you ok with some guns over others? What restrictions do you want? Get back to me on that and I'll debate a single point.

Here are a couple of issues I'd like to get opinions on.

- are the purpose of taxes to bring in the maximum amount of revenue to the government or to be based on an arbitrary standard that may satisfy a fair share argument ?

- Should the death tax be abolished ? You've paid taxes your entire life why should be forced to cough up more once you're gone leaving less for your family ?


BVS - Are you ever going to bring an original thought or idea to the table on your own?


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[Oregoropa]

Originally Posted by Diemen

Meanwhile, in the present day, law enforcement agencies around the nation have noted a dramatic increase in anti-Muslim attacks/threats/defacement of property, etc. All of it being fueled in large part by the unhinged, fear-based paranoia being spewed by nearly all of the Republican presidential candidates.

Can you source that. ( I can ask too) Or is that your working hypothesis?


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[PhilsFan]

I don't want to talk about this like it's fun. Conservatism isn't fun anymore. It ceased being fun a long time ago. It's killing the country.

Conservatives think progressives are batshit crazy? Well they're fucking wrong. Everyone knows it but them. Axver's right, American politics are a global punchline almost entirely because of the right, not the left. The GOP is objectively much worse than the Democratic Party.