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Old 11-04-2007, 06:55 AM   #1
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10 questions to Christians



after you have seen that video watch this:

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Old 11-04-2007, 08:07 AM   #2
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I'm a practicing Catholic. I don't take the Bible literally. It's the fundamentalists who believe that the Bible is literally true. They're the ones this video is aimed at, I think.
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Old 11-04-2007, 08:39 AM   #3
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Wow.

No thanks.

I stopped watching after the first question.
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Old 11-04-2007, 08:44 AM   #4
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I'm working on this. I'm about to leave for church, and I'll be thinking about it. It might actually be a few days before I get everything hashed out. I'm treating this like a paper.
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Old 11-04-2007, 08:55 AM   #5
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Lol. Ok, I'll bite.

You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics—in physical laws—every action is met by an equal or an opposite one. It's clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the universe. I'm absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that "as you reap, so you will sow" stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I've done a lot of stupid stuff.

^ That is the beauty of Christ -- in reality (to many Christians) or in concept (to many Christians). God turned the contract upside down.

The old contract was: keep the law -- crazy stuff like sacrificing sheep, not lusting after someone in your mind, and cutting your hands off. Hmmm.. man, that's impossible!

The new contract is: Since it's clear that the law cannot be kept (were we setup by God, or did we get the concept wrong?) This never ending battle of keeping the law is wearing out us, and God (I'd presume).

Call in the new contract: In keeping with old contract symbology -- I will make one sacrifice (reversing the concept) for you. But before I do, I need to make clear what I really meant. That is, the most important law, the intent of my commandements, is for you to love one another, treat each other with respect, and to be just with each other -- by doing this, you show love and respect for me.

Some people buy into the physical realities of Jesus and the apostles, some people buy into the concepts.

I'm not going to comment on the guy in the video, other than, I think it is very, very dangerous to declare the removal of the Bible from society, and the outcast of Christians due to their state of delusion. If that were to ever happen in America, it would be a sad, sad day indeed.
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Old 11-04-2007, 08:57 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
Lol. Ok, I'll bite.

You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics—in physical laws—every action is met by an equal or an opposite one. It's clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the universe. I'm absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that "as you reap, so you will sow" stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I've done a lot of stupid stuff.

That is the beauty of Christ, in reality (to many Christians) or in concept (to many Christians). God turned the contract upside down.

The old contract was: keep the law -- crazy stuff like sacrificing sheep, not lusting after someone in your mind, and cutting your hands off. Hmmm.. man, that's impossible!

The new contract is: Since it's clear that the law cannot be kept (were we setup by God, or did we get the concept wrong?) This never ending battle of keeping the law is wearing out us, and God (I'd presume).

Call in the new contract: In keeping with old contract symbology -- I will make one sacrifice (reversing the concept) for you. But before I do, I need to make clear what I really meant. That is, the most important law, the intent of my commandements, is for you to love one another, treat each other with respect, and to be just with each other -- by doing this, you show love and respect for me.

Some people buy into the physical realities of Jesus and the apostles, some people buy into the concepts.

I'm not going to comment on the guy in the video, other than, I think it is very, very dangerous to declare the removal of the Bible from society, and the outcast of Christians due to their state of delusion. If that were to ever happen in America, it would be a sad, sad day indeed.
You stole your first paragraph from Bono.

I love what you said too!
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Old 11-04-2007, 09:01 AM   #7
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You stole your first paragraph from Bono
Shhh.... you weren't supposed to let on. It was a setup.
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Old 11-04-2007, 09:43 AM   #8
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Wow. That was interesting.

Are all those verses really from the bible? I don't know because I'm not Christian.
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Old 11-04-2007, 10:02 AM   #9
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Zootlesque -- I can't remember now, but I think they were all quotes from what most Christians call the 'old testament', specifically, Deuteronomy and Leviticus, which are documentation on laws that the Isrealites added on to the 10 commandments.

What I tried to convey in my post, is that the very basic tenants of Christianity are built upon the idea that we are no longer bound to those, through a new deal that God offered through Jesus Christ -- hence the name "Christianity" and all of the "newnews" that one might here in this message, e.g., New Covenant, New Life, reborn, renewed, restored... all that kind of symbology.

So, the fact that the old law exists, is the very reason for Christ. If we didn't have those crazy laws, the impact/importance, and beauty of Christ would be lost.

Many will still debate some of Paul's writings in the New Testament, especially concerning homosexuality, but that is also BEYOND and ADDED TO Christ's simple message.
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Old 11-04-2007, 10:29 AM   #10
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I actually believe in the concept of karma over the concept of grace. I think it makes me lead a better life, I think I've been a better person for it. Oftentimes I think that "grace" is a word that is tossed around by a lot of Christians in an inappropriate way, both to justify their shitty lives and decision making, and to use it as a tool to convince others of the glory of the Christian God over the one they have.

In the end, I am not sure it makes much of a difference whether you live your lives according to the concept of karma or the one of grace. But I hate that grace is thrown around as the magical word that solves everything. It's become cheapened in many ways.
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Old 11-04-2007, 10:49 AM   #11
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Quote:
and to use it as a tool to convince others of the glory of the Christian God over the one they have
I understand, but usually there is something that helps you choose a direction, say Christianity, over another way, say Islam. The concept of grace is a differentiator.

Just like some choose coke over pepsi. There is something different about the two, that helps make the decision.
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Old 11-04-2007, 12:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I actually believe in the concept of karma over the concept of grace. I think it makes me lead a better life, I think I've been a better person for it. Oftentimes I think that "grace" is a word that is tossed around by a lot of Christians in an inappropriate way, both to justify their shitty lives and decision making, and to use it as a tool to convince others of the glory of the Christian God over the one they have.
While Christian Protestantism has long glossed over this fact, Christianity, for millennia, was predominated by the idea of faith and good works for salvation. The early Christian church, as depicted in the subtext of the New Testament, was divided on this subject. St. Paul and his Gentile-dominated Church of Antioch believed in faith alone for salvation, and his epistles drive that point across repeatedly. Sts. Peter and James and their Jewish Christian Church of Jerusalem believed in faith and good works, and their few surviving contributions to the New Testament reflect this.

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,' but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' and he was called 'the friend of God.' See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." - James 2:14-26

Although Jewish Christianity was effectively annihilated by the 2nd century A.D., I would say that this teaching was their main contribution to Christianity up until the Protestant Reformation, when Paul's view on faith alone for salvation took over again.

In practice, this debate of "faith alone vs. faith and works" is archaic and based on semantics. The Vatican, a decade or so ago, effectively declared that the Catholic and Protestant views on this subject were essentially identical.
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Old 11-04-2007, 02:19 PM   #13
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God didn't write the Bible.
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Old 11-04-2007, 04:58 PM   #14
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Re: 10 questions to Christians

Quote:
Originally posted by Peterrrrr


after you have seen that video watch this:

Expecting more than a couple people to bother watching 20+ minutes of video in order to be able to respond directly is a wee bit unrealistic, especially when you didn't make even the slightest effort to explain in your own words what the import of the videos is, or which topics from them you wished to discuss.
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Old 11-04-2007, 05:38 PM   #15
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Re: Re: 10 questions to Christians

Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

Expecting more than a couple people to bother watching 20+ minutes of video in order to be able to respond directly is a wee bit unrealistic, especially when you didn't make even the slightest effort to explain in your own words what the import of the videos is, or which topics from them you wished to discuss.
Yeah really. What are the questions? I'm not wasting 20 minutes on YouTube...
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Old 11-05-2007, 02:20 AM   #16
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Re: Re: 10 questions to Christians

Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

Expecting more than a couple people to bother watching 20+ minutes of video in order to be able to respond directly is a wee bit unrealistic, especially when you didn't make even the slightest effort to explain in your own words what the import of the videos is, or which topics from them you wished to discuss.
Ask yourself the questions, and If you still think there is a God... Well...

But please tell me why do so many christian believe that God heals pepole but not amputes. And why does God help a person who have some pain in his neck but not a hungry or sick child in Africa?
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Old 11-05-2007, 02:45 AM   #17
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:rollseyes:

i don't believe in God, but these questions always annoyed me. I don't think it helps the Proof" that there is no God by saying 'but why are their sick kids, why are there poor and starving people?'

if i was religious there are plenty of answers for that. Perhaps some people are used as tools of information to others to keep it real 'look both ways before you cross the road or you'll get smooshed like him'
perhaps poor/starving 3rd world people are there to make us feel humble, and thankful for what we have, to accept that we've got a pretty good life, and try our best to help out

or its all that mumbo jumbo shite about humans the sinner and yada yada

i don't know, don't really care (except in some exitential sort of way) but i've always throught this sort of questioning was kinda piss weak and easy to counteract
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Old 11-05-2007, 02:57 AM   #18
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Re: Re: Re: 10 questions to Christians

Quote:
Originally posted by Peterrrrr

But please tell me why do so many christian believe that God heals pepole but not amputes. And why does God help a person who have some pain in his neck but not a hungry or sick child in Africa?
I'm agnostic, but think it's every bit as presumptuous and arrogant to say you can prove there is no god as it is to say you can prove there is a god. The problem with the questions noted above is they have nothing to do with god, they are simply what some people who believe in a god think. Just because they think it doesn't make it true. It's a little like saying because some parents rape and murder their children, parenthood is inherently evil.
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Old 11-05-2007, 05:23 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,
this statement has always bothered me a little bit


"Karma is not about retribution, vengeance, punishment or reward; karma simply deals with what is. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma
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Old 11-05-2007, 07:49 AM   #20
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Re: Re: Re: 10 questions to Christians

Quote:
Originally posted by Peterrrrr


But please tell me why do so many christian believe that God heals pepole but not amputes. And why does God help a person who have some pain in his neck but not a hungry or sick child in Africa?
As a Christian, I often wonder the same thing myself and have always been amazed and how many Christians are obsessed with prayer, but never study the theology of it.

The concept of petitionary prayer has always been a struggle for me. In college, I read an essay written by an amazing theologian and basically his point is that the purpose of petitionary prayer is not to actually intervene on someone else's behalf and change the will of God, but to simply have a conversation with God in order to better understand and accept his will. The best example of this is Jesus praying to God before his crucifixion. He prays three times. The first time he is trying to change the will of God, begging God to intervene on his behalf, but by the third time he is calm and praying to God that God's will shall be done.

If you want to read the essay, I will find it and post the name (I know who it's by but can't remember the title). My post is just a brief synopsis. The essay is devoted to answer the question you asked, at least from a Reformed point of view.
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