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Old 12-07-2010, 03:37 AM   #181
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whoa moonlit_angel! that's freaky - i didn't make those last four comments you quoted me as saying there in your last post - it comes across as though i have some kind of split personality! ROFL
Oh, crap, did I do that ? I'm sorry, to both you and Pac_Mule! It was after 3 in the morning, so, um, yeah.... Still, though, my apologies again.

Angela
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Old 12-07-2010, 03:57 AM   #182
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Oh, crap, did I do that ? I'm sorry, to both you and Pac_Mule! It was after 3 in the morning, so, um, yeah.... Still, though, my apologies again.

Angela
it's ok... i thought it was funny! xx
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Old 12-07-2010, 04:10 AM   #183
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thought this was an interesting article, from today's Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ive-with-leaks

Live with the WikiLeakable world or shut down the net. It's your choice

Western political elites obfuscate, lie and bluster – and when the veil of secrecy is lifted, they try to kill the messenger

John Naughton
guardian.co.uk, Monday 6 December 2010 20.59 GMT

Article history

'Never waste a good crisis" used to be the catchphrase of the Obama team in the runup to the presidential election. In that spirit, let us see what we can learn from official reactions to the WikiLeaks revelations.

The most obvious lesson is that it represents the first really sustained confrontation between the established order and the culture of the internet. There have been skirmishes before, but this is the real thing.

And as the backlash unfolds – first with deniable attacks on internet service providers hosting WikiLeaks, later with companies like Amazon and eBay and PayPal suddenly "discovering" that their terms and conditions preclude them from offering services to WikiLeaks, and then with the US government attempting to intimidate Columbia students posting updates about WikiLeaks on Facebook – the intolerance of the old order is emerging from the rosy mist in which it has hitherto been obscured. The response has been vicious, co-ordinated and potentially comprehensive, and it contains hard lessons for everyone who cares about democracy and about the future of the net.

There is a delicious irony in the fact that it is now the so-called liberal democracies that are clamouring to shut WikiLeaks down.

Consider, for instance, how the views of the US administration have changed in just a year. On 21 January, secretary of state Hillary Clinton made a landmark speech about internet freedom, in Washington DC, which many people welcomed and most interpreted as a rebuke to China for its alleged cyberattack on Google. "Information has never been so free," declared Clinton. "Even in authoritarian countries, information networks are helping people discover new facts and making governments more accountable."

She went on to relate how, during his visit to China in November 2009, Barack Obama had "defended the right of people to freely access information, and said that the more freely information flows the stronger societies become. He spoke about how access to information helps citizens to hold their governments accountable, generates new ideas, and encourages creativity." Given what we now know, that Clinton speech reads like a satirical masterpiece.

One thing that might explain the official hysteria about the revelations is the way they expose how political elites in western democracies have been deceiving their electorates.

The leaks make it abundantly clear not just that the US-Anglo-European adventure in Afghanistan is doomed but, more important, that the American, British and other Nato governments privately admit that too.

The problem is that they cannot face their electorates – who also happen to be the taxpayers funding this folly – and tell them this. The leaked dispatches from the US ambassador to Afghanistan provide vivid confirmation that the Karzai regime is as corrupt and incompetent as the South Vietnamese regime in Saigon was when the US was propping it up in the 1970s. And they also make it clear that the US is as much a captive of that regime as it was in Vietnam.

The WikiLeaks revelations expose the extent to which the US and its allies see no real prospect of turning Afghanistan into a viable state, let alone a functioning democracy. They show that there is no light at the end of this tunnel. But the political establishments in Washington, London and Brussels cannot bring themselves to admit this.

Afghanistan is, in that sense, a quagmire in the same way that Vietnam was. The only differences are that the war is now being fought by non-conscripted troops and we are not carpet-bombing civilians.

The attack of WikiLeaks also ought to be a wake-up call for anyone who has rosy fantasies about whose side cloud computing providers are on. These are firms like Google, Flickr, Facebook, Myspace and Amazon which host your blog or store your data on their servers somewhere on the internet, or which enable you to rent "virtual" computers – again located somewhere on the net. The terms and conditions under which they provide both "free" and paid-for services will always give them grounds for dropping your content if they deem it in their interests to do so. The moral is that you should not put your faith in cloud computing – one day it will rain on your parade.

Look at the case of Amazon, which dropped WikiLeaks from its Elastic Compute Cloud the moment the going got rough. It seems that Joe Lieberman, a US senator who suffers from a terminal case of hubris, harassed the company over the matter. Later Lieberman declared grandly that he would be "asking Amazon about the extent of its relationship with WikiLeaks and what it and other web service providers will do in the future to ensure that their services are not used to distribute stolen, classified information". This led the New Yorker's Amy Davidson to ask whether "Lieberman feels that he, or any senator, can call in the company running the New Yorker's printing presses when we are preparing a story that includes leaked classified material, and tell it to stop us".

What WikiLeaks is really exposing is the extent to which the western democratic system has been hollowed out. In the last decade its political elites have been shown to be incompetent (Ireland, the US and UK in not regulating banks); corrupt (all governments in relation to the arms trade); or recklessly militaristic (the US and UK in Iraq). And yet nowhere have they been called to account in any effective way. Instead they have obfuscated, lied or blustered their way through. And when, finally, the veil of secrecy is lifted, their reflex reaction is to kill the messenger.

As Simon Jenkins put it recently in the Guardian, "Disclosure is messy and tests moral and legal boundaries. It is often irresponsible and usually embarrassing. But it is all that is left when regulation does nothing, politicians are cowed, lawyers fall silent and audit is polluted. Accountability can only default to disclosure." What we are hearing from the enraged officialdom of our democracies is mostly the petulant screaming of emperors whose clothes have been shredded by the net.

Which brings us back to the larger significance of this controversy. The political elites of western democracies have discovered that the internet can be a thorn not just in the side of authoritarian regimes, but in their sides too. It has been comical watching them and their agencies stomp about the net like maddened, half-blind giants trying to whack a mole. It has been deeply worrying to watch terrified internet companies – with the exception of Twitter, so far – bending to their will.

But politicians now face an agonising dilemma. The old, mole-whacking approach won't work. WikiLeaks does not depend only on web technology. Thousands of copies of those secret cables – and probably of much else besides – are out there, distributed by peer-to-peer technologies like BitTorrent. Our rulers have a choice to make: either they learn to live in a WikiLeakable world, with all that implies in terms of their future behaviour; or they shut down the internet. Over to them.
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Old 12-07-2010, 04:15 AM   #184
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ah some sense in this madness!!

French web host need not shut down WikiLeaks site: judge
(AFP) – 11 hours ago

PARIS — A French judge declined to force web provider OVH to shut down the WikiLeaks site, OVH said on Monday, after the government called for the whistleblower website to be kicked out of France.

The legal challenge came after French Industry Minister Eric Besson called for WikiLeaks to be banned from French servers after the site took refuge there on Thursday, having been expelled from the United States.
A court in the northern city of Lille had rejected a first complaint by OVH arguing that it was incomplete.
A new complaint was made Monday calling on judges in Lille and Paris to rule whether or the not the site was legal, said OVH in an email to AFP.
The Lille court again rejected it, while the Paris court said the case needed further arguments.
"As far as OVH, the technical provider, is concerned we have done the utmost to clarify the legal situation of the site.... We have tried to be as transparent as possible," said the company based at Roubaix near Lille.
"It's neither for the political world nor for OVH to call for or to decide on a site's closure, but for the justice system," OVH's managing director Octave Klaba has said. "That's how it should work under the rule of law."
OVH said it had only discovered it was hosting WikiLeaks after reading press reports.
WikiLeaks ordered a dedicated server with protection from cyber attacks through OVH's website using a credit card to pay the "less than 150-euro" (200-dollar) bill, Klaba said.
"OVH is neither for nor against this site... We neither asked to host this site nor not to host it. Now that it's with us, we will fulfil the contract. That's our job."
Besson earlier asked the CGIET, the highest body governing the Internet in France, to find a way to expel the site from French servers, describing the situation as "unacceptable".
On Thursday, WikiLeaks moved to OVH after US Internet giant Amazon booted it off its servers following pressure from US politicians angered by the release of some quarter million secret diplomatic cables.
"France cannot host Internet sites that violate the confidentiality of diplomatic relations and put in danger people protected by diplomatic secrecy," Besson wrote in a letter, a copy of which was seen by AFP.
"Tell me as quickly as possible what action can be taken to stop this site being hosted in France, and firstly tell all operators that have helped host it of the consequences of their actions and then hold them responsible."
The WikiLeaks revelations have angered world governments to such an extent that the website is being forced to hopscotch around the world's servers, while also coming under massive cyber attacks aimed at bringing the site down.
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:41 AM   #185
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Drum roll please...........






WikiLeaks founder Assange arrested in London - CNN.com

Thanks very much to the British authorities for getting this cyber-creep off the streets.
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:42 AM   #186
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if you'd seen him, you'd have totally kicked his ass right?
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:46 AM   #187
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Drum roll please...........






WikiLeaks founder Assange arrested in London - CNN.com

Thanks very much to the British authorities for getting this cyber-creep off the streets.
How's life in fairy tail land??
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:53 AM   #188
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if you'd seen him, you'd have totally kicked his ass right?
Nah......that would be a waste of energy.

Just as Bradley Manning did his dirty work for him, I'd get my friends to kick his ass for me.....heehee.
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:55 AM   #189
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How's life in fairy tail land??
Things are just fine thanks. The sun is shining, the birds are chirping and the air is a bit cleaner now that there is less pollution....

Thanks for asking.
And how are things in lovely Holland? Still tip-toeing through the tulips?

Have a lovely day.
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Old 12-07-2010, 06:05 AM   #190
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Things are just fine thanks. The sun is shining, the birds are chirping and the air is a bit cleaner now that there is less pollution....

Thanks for asking.
And how are things in lovely Holland? Still tip-toeing through the tulips?

Have a lovely day.
wish I was there. This country is getting worse by the minute.
Oh well, 14 months left till emigration
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Old 12-07-2010, 06:59 AM   #191
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wish I was there. This country is getting worse by the minute.
Oh well, 14 months left till emigration
Oh I'm sorry - I saw "Rotterdam" on your location and assumed you were there....

I wish you good luck and good fortune wherever you are...
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:11 AM   #192
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sorry, that probably did need context. if i remember correctly (and i hope i do), the poster i was replying to said in another thread he was thinking of or about to move to australia. i meant that his...manner really would be enjoyed in australia. as in he'd be wise to not book a one-way flight.
good.....i'll keep that in mind next time i feel threatened
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:12 AM   #193
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good.....i'll keep that in mind next time i feel threatened
your first effort was funnier, champ.
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:13 AM   #194
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i try
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:14 AM   #195
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i try
you shouldn't be proud of diminishing returns. hold yourself to a higher standard.
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:15 AM   #196
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glad you've taken such an interest........no sheep to shear today?
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:16 AM   #197
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glad you've taken such an interest........no sheep to shear today?
i'm more of a latte sipper, to be honest.
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:21 AM   #198
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Thanks very much to the British authorities for getting this cyber-creep off the streets.
they didn't... Julian Assange presented himself to the police... he didn't have much choice really, it needs to be sorted out even though the charges against him are very dubious, and have already been thrown out before in Sweden, so we'll see what happens... i believe though that he is very much the target of a nasty smear campaign...

i wonder when wikileaks will release the "insurance file"...
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:23 AM   #199
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me too.......cept i'm on the wagon of late........nice to meet you


more recent revelations.......

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Old 12-07-2010, 08:46 AM   #200
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quick copy/paste, but worth reading if you're interested:

"Wikileaks founder Julian Assange wrote this Op-Ed for The Australian today:

Key lines:

* WikiLeaks is fearlessly publishing facts that need to be made public.

* The dark days of corruption in the Queensland government before the Fitzgerald inquiry are testimony to what happens when the politicians gag the media from reporting the truth.

* (My idea is) to use internet technologies in new ways to report the truth.

* People have said I am anti-war: for the record, I am not. Sometimes nations need to go to war, and there are just wars.

* The Gillard government (Australia) is trying to shoot the messenger because it doesn’t want the truth revealed.

Text follows:

IN 1958 a young Rupert Murdoch, then owner and editor of Adelaide’s The News, wrote: “In the race between secrecy and truth, it seems inevitable that truth will always win.”

His observation perhaps reflected his father Keith Murdoch’s expose that Australian troops were being needlessly sacrificed by incompetent British commanders on the shores of Gallipoli. The British tried to shut him up but Keith Murdoch would not be silenced and his efforts led to the termination of the disastrous Gallipoli campaign.

Nearly a century later, WikiLeaks is also fearlessly publishing facts that need to be made public.

I grew up in a Queensland country town where people spoke their minds bluntly. They distrusted big government as something that could be corrupted if not watched carefully. The dark days of corruption in the Queensland government before the Fitzgerald inquiry are testimony to what happens when the politicians gag the media from reporting the truth.

These things have stayed with me. WikiLeaks was created around these core values. The idea, conceived in Australia , was to use internet technologies in new ways to report the truth.

WikiLeaks coined a new type of journalism: scientific journalism. We work with other media outlets to bring people the news, but also to prove it is true. Scientific journalism allows you to read a news story, then to click online to see the original document it is based on. That way you can judge for yourself: Is the story true? Did the journalist report it accurately?

Democratic societies need a strong media and WikiLeaks is part of that media. The media helps keep government honest. WikiLeaks has revealed some hard truths about the Iraq and Afghan wars, and broken stories about corporate corruption.

People have said I am anti-war: for the record, I am not. Sometimes nations need to go to war, and there are just wars. But there is nothing more wrong than a government lying to its people about those wars, then asking these same citizens to put their lives and their taxes on the line for those lies. If a war is justified, then tell the truth and the people will decide whether to support it.

If you have read any of the Afghan or Iraq war logs, any of the US embassy cables or any of the stories about the things WikiLeaks has reported, consider how important it is for all media to be able to report these things freely.

WikiLeaks is not the only publisher of the US embassy cables. Other media outlets, including Britain ‘s The Guardian, The New York Times, El Pais in Spain and Der Spiegel in Germany have published the same redacted cables.

Yet it is WikiLeaks, as the co-ordinator of these other groups, that has copped the most vicious attacks and accusations from the US government and its acolytes. I have been accused of treason, even though I am an Australian, not a US, citizen. There have been dozens of serious calls in the US for me to be “taken out” by US special forces. Sarah Palin says I should be “hunted down like Osama bin Laden”, a Republican bill sits before the US Senate seeking to have me declared a “transnational threat” and disposed of accordingly. An adviser to the Canadian Prime Minister’s office has called on national television for me to be assassinated. An American blogger has called for my 20-year-old son, here in Australia, to be kidnapped and harmed for no other reason than to get at me.

And Australians should observe with no pride the disgraceful pandering to these sentiments by Prime Minister Gillard and US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton have not had a word of criticism for the other media organisations. That is because The Guardian, The New York Times and Der Spiegel are old and large, while WikiLeaks is as yet young and small.

We are the underdogs. The Gillard government is trying to shoot the messenger because it doesn’t want the truth revealed, including information about its own diplomatic and political dealings.

Has there been any response from the Australian government to the numerous public threats of violence against me and other WikiLeaks personnel? One might have thought an Australian prime minister would be defending her citizens against such things, but there have only been wholly unsubstantiated claims of illegality. The Prime Minister and especially the Attorney-General are meant to carry out their duties with dignity and above the fray. Rest assured, these two mean to save their own skins. They will not.

Every time WikiLeaks publishes the truth about abuses committed by US agencies, Australian politicians chant a provably false chorus with the State Department: “You’ll risk lives! National security! You’ll endanger troops!” Then they say there is nothing of importance in what WikiLeaks publishes. It can’t be both. Which is it?

It is neither. WikiLeaks has a four-year publishing history. During that time we have changed whole governments, but not a single person, as far as anyone is aware, has been harmed. But the US , with Australian government connivance, has killed thousands in the past few months alone.

US Secretary of Defence Robert Gates admitted in a letter to the US congress that no sensitive intelligence sources or methods had been compromised by the Afghan war logs disclosure. The Pentagon stated there was no evidence the WikiLeaks reports had led to anyone being harmed in Afghanistan . NATO in Kabul told CNN it couldn’t find a single person who needed protecting. The Australian Department of Defence said the same. No Australian troops or sources have been hurt by anything we have published.

But our publications have been far from unimportant. The US diplomatic cables reveal some startling facts:

The US asked its diplomats to steal personal human material and information from UN officials and human rights groups, including DNA, fingerprints, iris scans, credit card numbers, internet passwords and ID photos, in violation of international treaties. Presumably Australian UN diplomats may be targeted, too.

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia asked the US Officials in Jordan and Bahrain want Iran ‘s nuclear program stopped by any means available.

Britain’s Iraq inquiry was fixed to protect “US interests”.

Sweden is a covert member of NATO and US intelligence sharing is kept from parliament.

The US is playing hardball to get other countries to take freed detainees from Guantanamo Bay . Barack Obama agreed to meet the Slovenian President only if Slovenia took a prisoner. Our Pacific neighbour Kiribati was offered millions of dollars to accept detainees.

In its landmark ruling in the Pentagon Papers case, the US Supreme Court said “only a free and unrestrained press can effectively expose deception in government”. The swirling storm around WikiLeaks today reinforces the need to defend the right of all media to reveal the truth.

Julian Assange is the editor-in-chief of WikiLeaks."
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