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Old 01-16-2018, 07:13 PM   #381
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How you are wrapping this up any other way is beyond me.
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I might just take this time to reflect on myself, listen to what women are saying, and then reflect on how we can make a better world'?.
What you have to allow for and consider is that people can do that and still come to different conclusions than you. Someone not agreeing with you doesn't mean their opinion is ill considered.

If even feminists in France and all across the world have different take on this than you do, have you considered that maybe your opinion isn't necessarily the correct one? Or at least the only reasonable one? Maybe you should "shut up and listen" to women who don't agree with your take on this. There's not a single, monolithic view on what's right here. For example, you've agreed with anitram, but implicitly disagreed with women on here who are taking a different POV. Shouldn't you "shut up and listen" to them as well? Or is it just the women whose opinion you share?

I'm not trying to have a go at you...just asking you to consider you might not be necessarily right...as you've asked me to.
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:20 PM   #382
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As I said above, all the women that I love and respect - my partner, friends, feminists who I've followed online for years now - share the same opinion of that one article from one French feminist. That it is victim-shaming and gives men an easy out, and that all its points are very easily and objectively dismissible.

Catherine Deneuve is 74 years old and from an older generation. She grew up having these things be socially acceptable. An entire generation of women are now saying that this is no longer acceptable.

Germaine Greer, one of the world's most iconic feminists, is 78 and shares the same view. To treat her as some sort of authority, when she's had many of her views widely criticised, like her view that "you can't cut your balls off and pretend you're a woman", is bullshit.
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:22 PM   #383
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Why exactly France is being presented as some kind of bellwether on sexual ethics is beyond me.
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:23 PM   #384
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If you think this POV is limited to Deneuve and Greer, you're very much mistaken. And I think if you look you'll find there's much greater diversity of opinion this issue than you suppose, across women (and yes, men) of all generations and nationalities.

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Why exactly France is being presented as some kind of bellwether on sexual ethics is beyond me.
And the world should look where? To America? A country a few generations away from puritanism? (and seems to want to go back there). No thanks.
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:25 PM   #385
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What you have to allow for and consider is that people can do that and still come to different conclusions than you. Someone not agreeing with you doesn't mean their opinion is ill considered.
LOL.

Coming from you.
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:25 PM   #386
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Well let's listen to everyone and not have anything ever change then. Great. Sounds good.
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:26 PM   #387
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Irvine, how you have fallen in my view. What a view to take away from this article. Instead of going on the defence, why don't we have a discussion about how a lot of the things mentioned in this article sound pretty awful?

All the women that I love and respect are saying that the article is rife with behaviours that they recognise, behaviours that have repeatedly throughout their lives made them feel uncomfortable.

It's really disappointing to read a post from a poster as thoughtful as yourself that reads just like every other centrist reactionary on twitter.

i think this is a little overdramatic, but i appreciate the kind words about previous posts, and I'm sorry i've let you down, but i'll attempt to explain myself further.

as you know, i have sex with men. i dated men. i've been "Grace." literally, almost everything she's talked about i've experienced in some form or another. i am not unfamiliar, particularly when i was a younger gay man figuring shit out, that older men can be somewhat predatory, that occasionally you stop in the middle of something, or at the end, and wonder what the fuck you are doing and how you got there. and, sometimes, i enjoyed that. imagine that -- you can enjoy being a sex object for an evening! you are empowered to turn down a sex pest as well.

***and it goes without staying that all this happens OUTSIDE the context of work, as it did with Ansari. the workplace is an ENTIRELY different situation.***

but the main thing is that there is no crime here. there is no imbalance of power here, unless we're going to assume that being a celebrity male gives you a power that leads women to say yes when they really mean no. there is also no due process, no privacy, swift rushes to judgment, and i think we'd be naive to think that, with the benefits of online anonymity, that some bad actors won't take this movement as a chance to air grievances and ruin careers.

for what it's worth, i believe her. but i don't agree with her.

all this behavior is indeed regrettable. he sounds like he was a jerk. but i didn't need to know ANY of it. this is not my business, it is not your business. it's gossip and hearsay, and also probably true. this is the airing of dirty laundry, of a date that went poorly when an entitled, selfish celebrity treated someone not well. and i also believe that women have agency, that many women would have ended the date, or, you know, not consensually received and reciprocated oral sex. or, if they did, at least understood how that was going to be perceived, and then not described it in lurid detail to a website as "THE WORST NIGHT OF MY LIFE."

what bothers me most about the presentation of "Grace's" story is that sex is something that men do to women, that it's men who hold the power in any hook up and must read minds. it is precisely the fact that i am a feminist (and have identified as one since the mid-90s, i was in a gender equality club in high school and talked about rape culture to other sophomores who looked at me like i was crazy) that i find this situation exactly what #metoo needs to not be doing. training men to be better is one thing, but training women to be assertive and speak up is another, because if you don't do both, all the power stays with men.
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:41 PM   #388
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but the main thing is that there is no crime here. there is no imbalance of power here, unless we're going to assume that being a celebrity male gives you a power that leads women to say yes when they really mean no. there is also no due process, no privacy, swift rushes to judgment, and i think we'd be naive to think that, with the benefits of online anonymity, that some bad actors won't take this movement as a chance to air grievances and ruin careers.

for what it's worth, i believe her. but i don't agree with her.

all this behavior is indeed regrettable. he sounds like he was a jerk. but i didn't need to know ANY of it. this is not my business, it is not your business. it's gossip and hearsay, and also probably true. this is the airing of dirty laundry, of a date that went poorly when an entitled, selfish celebrity treated someone not well. and i also believe that women have agency, that many women would have ended the date, or, you know, not consensually received and reciprocated oral sex. or, if they did, at least understood how that was going to be perceived.

what bothers me most about the presentation of "Grace's" story is that sex is something that men do to women, that it's men who hold the power in any hook up and must read minds. it is precisely the fact that i am a feminist (and have identified as one since the mid-90s, i was in a gender equality club in high school and talked about rape culture to other sophomores who looked at me like i was crazy) that i find this situation exactly what #metoo needs to not be doing. training men is better is one thing, but training women to be assertive and speak up is another, because if you don't do both, all the power stays with men.
Very thoughtful response

I agree that perhaps there is no ‘crime’ here. I agree with that.

But what the women in my life are saying is that it doesn’t HAVE to be a crime for it to be a big deal.

That’s the discussion we need to be having.

My partner’s take: “As much as the Aziz Ansari thing upsets me I'm very glad it's come to light because people are talking about coerced consent or consent when it's not really wanted to be given and that's such an important conversation. I really hope it will open a lot of people's eyes.”

I am very, very uncomfortable with yours (and others) comments like “i also believe that women have agency, that many women would have ended the date, or, you know, not consensually received and reciprocated oral sex”. I have spoken with women in my life about this very thing. They have been in situations where they has performed such acts consensually when they never really wanted to. And such comments like that completely dismiss those feelings, and that’s really unacceptable.

Yes, maybe some bad actors will take it opportunistically, but they are going to be a very small percentage, and we absolutely should not be giving them equal weight or men the benefit of the doubt, because then we are back to square one.

Maybe it is gossip and hearsay, but if it’s not aired, then when will men ever look at their own behaviour and try to be better?
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:48 PM   #389
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(I don't mean to attack you or devalue your own experiences here, by the way. I've seen maaaany people say similar things.)
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:48 PM   #390
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Women definitely need to be assertive and speak up. There is still that socialization that men can't quite understand or experience in the same way. That he won't like you if you do, that men won't like you, that you have to make him happy. I'm long past the age where I give a damn about any of that. But I was 22 once like that woman. She liked who she thought he was and who she projected he was. Been there, done that. Still do it when feeling very vulnerable.

But I just read that Babe article and I believe she did mention about her movements being restricted. I'm really tired so maybe I'm wrong-but that makes me very uncomfortable. I believe in making these matters very honest and verbal. That's not "unromantic", it's not a mood killer. And it's empowering for everyone. But I'm not her nor was I in her situation.
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:07 PM   #391
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I'm long past the age where I give a damn about any of that. But I was 22 once like that woman. She liked who she thought he was and who she projected he was. Been there, done that.
Bingo.

First of all, it should NOT be incumbent upon women to exercise "agency" moreso than it should be incumbent upon the man not to be, you know, an asshole.

Second, I had assumed that we had moved past the point where we were victim blaming women for not walking away from bad relationships, abuse, dependency, etc, when we all should know that these are complicated psychological matters. If only it was that easy.

Third, as MrsS astutely put, women are conditioned socially to behave a certain way and to pursue men a certain way and to feel proud at being winked at by particular sorts of men and so on. I'm 38-years-old and I wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes with his inane bullshit and the whole "if I pour you another glass of wine now does that count as a second date" would have earned him a giant but I cannot tell you at all with any sort of certainty that 20 years ago that would have been the case.

Rather than yelling about her not exercising her agency, how about saying that maybe when a woman says "I don't want to have sex with you yet/this time", you saying, ok, that's fair, I understand instead of refusing that as acceptable and plying her with alcohol instead. No it's not a crime, but why are we putting it all on her here without pointing out that his reaction is pretty gross for an adult in his 30s as Vlad pointed out?
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:17 PM   #392
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Tipping Point - Sexual Harassment In America

Wait, are we equating not walking out of an apartment on a first date to be the same thing as not walking out on a long-term abusive relationship?

No one is saying he wasn’t gross. In fact we all are. Literally no one is putting this all on her. But we are also saying that maybe it doesn’t need to be all over the Internet in graphic, clickbaiting detail, and that maybe this entire story has little to do with #metoo and is little more than tabloid fodder?
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:21 PM   #393
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I think his behavior is bizarre (and gross frankly) for a guy his age too. He's also probably a fairly entitled celebrity with what he thought/assumed/imagined was an infatuated 22 year old woman.

I think there's also socialization that women are somehow responsible for a man's behavior in this realm. As if somehow every word or action will produce some reaction or action that you're responsible for.
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:22 PM   #394
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Rather than yelling about her not exercising her agency, how about saying that maybe when a woman says "I don't want to have sex with you yet/this time", you saying, ok, that's fair, I understand instead of refusing that as acceptable and plying her with alcohol instead. No it's not a crime, but why are we putting it all on her here without pointing out that his reaction is pretty gross for an adult in his 30s as Vlad pointed out?


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But we are also saying that maybe it doesn’t need to be all over the Internet in graphic, clickbaiting detail, and that maybe this entire story has little to do with #metoo and is little more than tabloid fodder?
Read my previous response. A lot of women are saying that this is resulting in us having a very important conversation.

If I was in Aziz's shoes, I'd take the time to reflect on it and try to see how I could be better. Show some leadership and come out and tell men that we need to be better.
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:27 PM   #395
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But we are also saying that maybe it doesn’t need to be all over the Internet in graphic, clickbaiting detail, and that maybe this entire story has little to do with #metoo and is little more than tabloid fodder?
Well, maybe. If he wasn't a celebrity, nobody would read or care which probably means he should be smarter and more cautious about his behaviour.

That doesn't invalidate the climate of sexual harassment and sexism that still runs rampant. But some people are using him as the "you see! this is all a social media witch hunt!" nevertheless.
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:33 PM   #396
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If I was in Aziz's shoes, I'd take the time to reflect on it and try to see how I could be better. Show some leadership and come out and tell men that we need to be better.
You're always saying this, and I think it's very noble and commendable. Displays humility and self reflection. That should be the goal of all humans, don't see why that's so difficult. Just drop the defensiveness and listen too.

That's what Matt Damon said today, that he's going to stop talking about it and start listening. That he has added to the hurt some women feel and he doesn't want to do that. And maybe he doesn't have all the answers regarding this issue. Gee what a concept.
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:52 PM   #397
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And people keep saying stuff like "oh it's ending careers with no due process" and saying that it smears the man and means he is now a totally bad person.

But I don't believe that. I have fucked up, and when I've done that, and been called out on it, I've taken it on board and tried to learn from it, and I honestly believe that has made me a better person.

With Aziz, Louis CK, Spacey, et al, I don't think these allegations automatically end them and make them a bad person forever. It's not black and white like that. I think if you are called out, but then go away and reflect on it and try to learn from it and be better, then you can actually have a positive impact out of something bad.

Here's a really beautiful example of it: Dan Harmon was the showrunner of Community and he fell for a junior female writer. She didn't reciprocate and he treated her like shit. She called him out on Twitter, but instead of getting defensive or denying it, he took it on board, reflected on it, then came out with a thoughtful response where he didn't blame her, he took full responsibility, and she said that she really appreciated it and forgave him.

Wouldn't it be beautiful if more men did that?
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:54 AM   #398
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IF WOMEN DIDN'T HAVE SOCIAL MEDIA TO CALL MEN OUT THEN IT WOULDN'T HAPPEN AND WE'D BE BACK TO WHERE WE WERE AND THE MEN WOULD BE PAYING HUSH MONEY AND GETTING NO REPERCUSSIONS FOR THEIR SHIT BEHAVIOUR AND OTHER MEN WOULD BE LEARNING NOTHING.
duuuude, calm the fuck down

i'm in my mid-40s and had my fair share of harassment before the days of social media, and recent unwanted attention too, but it's never stopped me from schooling a man, getting out of a situation, and dealing with it myself

you seriously think men would learn nothing if there wasn't social media? jeesus

your comment is an insult to everyone who ever achieved anything before the internet
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:56 AM   #399
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i think this is a little overdramatic, but i appreciate the kind words about previous posts, and I'm sorry i've let you down, but i'll attempt to explain myself further.

as you know, i have sex with men. i dated men. i've been "Grace." literally, almost everything she's talked about i've experienced in some form or another. i am not unfamiliar, particularly when i was a younger gay man figuring shit out, that older men can be somewhat predatory, that occasionally you stop in the middle of something, or at the end, and wonder what the fuck you are doing and how you got there. and, sometimes, i enjoyed that. imagine that -- you can enjoy being a sex object for an evening! you are empowered to turn down a sex pest as well.

***and it goes without staying that all this happens OUTSIDE the context of work, as it did with Ansari. the workplace is an ENTIRELY different situation.***

but the main thing is that there is no crime here. there is no imbalance of power here, unless we're going to assume that being a celebrity male gives you a power that leads women to say yes when they really mean no. there is also no due process, no privacy, swift rushes to judgment, and i think we'd be naive to think that, with the benefits of online anonymity, that some bad actors won't take this movement as a chance to air grievances and ruin careers.

for what it's worth, i believe her. but i don't agree with her.

all this behavior is indeed regrettable. he sounds like he was a jerk. but i didn't need to know ANY of it. this is not my business, it is not your business. it's gossip and hearsay, and also probably true. this is the airing of dirty laundry, of a date that went poorly when an entitled, selfish celebrity treated someone not well. and i also believe that women have agency, that many women would have ended the date, or, you know, not consensually received and reciprocated oral sex. or, if they did, at least understood how that was going to be perceived, and then not described it in lurid detail to a website as "THE WORST NIGHT OF MY LIFE."

what bothers me most about the presentation of "Grace's" story is that sex is something that men do to women, that it's men who hold the power in any hook up and must read minds. it is precisely the fact that i am a feminist (and have identified as one since the mid-90s, i was in a gender equality club in high school and talked about rape culture to other sophomores who looked at me like i was crazy) that i find this situation exactly what #metoo needs to not be doing. training men to be better is one thing, but training women to be assertive and speak up is another, because if you don't do both, all the power stays with men.
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:59 AM   #400
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They have been in situations where they has performed such acts consensually when they never really wanted to.
i'm sorry but NO

if you don't want to do something DON'T DO IT simples!!

and if a guy is trying to coerce you into doing something you don't want to do, and disregarding your feelings on the matter, then get out of it because he is an asshole!

where the fuck has common sense gone?

you want to blame one adult because another adult consented to do something they secretly didn't want to do?

i am so confused
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