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Old 11-14-2015, 06:36 AM   #81
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Yes, we're aware of that.

For all we know there might have been more attackers.
there were more attackers who, as far as i know, have not been caught, hence lock-down
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Old 11-14-2015, 06:45 AM   #82
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holy crap - have just heard that my friend's daughter's school mate was there at the gig and managed to get out
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Old 11-14-2015, 07:42 AM   #83
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ISIS in indeed taking credit for the attack, stating that it's in retaliation for France's involvement in Egypt. Taken with their claim to have brought down the Russian airliner over the Sinai, this shows a new global reach for them that's a bit frightening.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34820016


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Old 11-14-2015, 08:05 AM   #84
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Europe has to rethink about some of its ideas.



Like what, specifically?

As far as I can see, the only way to prevent hate and terrorism is to not give people reasons to behave this way.


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Old 11-14-2015, 08:33 AM   #85
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Shooting/Terrorism in Paris

This was a particularly insightful comment over on MetaFilter about the motivations behind these attacks, and why it's so important to not blame the actions of an extremist few on the whole of Islam:

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The people who do these things - whoever they are, across political spectra - hope that hatred will be roused against their own community/belief/group so that those people will be pushed into supporting the cause. They're hoping to cause panic and hatred, because the one thing they don't want is that their own people should be happy and free within the society under attack. They always want their own group to be hated by the majority so that they'll have no choice but to be recruited or to quietly support the aims of the violent. It is not just violence against the targets, it's violence against the people they purport to be "defending", and it's strategic. It's coercive and fascist and there is no ghost of a political justification for this kind of thing.
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Old 11-14-2015, 08:45 AM   #86
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Thank you for sharing this, Diemen!


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Old 11-14-2015, 09:50 AM   #87
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Old 11-14-2015, 11:11 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Rusalka View Post
Like what, specifically?

As far as I can see, the only way to prevent hate and terrorism is to not give people reasons to behave this way.


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About multiple things, about border security, for one. I don't need my government or the EU or whomever to close our borders, but i do wan't them to take my security, my families security, my friends security etc a more serious.
The security in France, Belgium and the Netherlands particularly have been a joke.

I want the EU to be there for people who are REAL refugees, who need a new home. Women and children first, men who are in need welcome too!
But please. Not the thousands of men who come here to ruin my fellow people's already crooked perspectives on religion, race , gender, etc.

That's what needs to change. We need to send a clear message to whom is welcome here, and who is not, and actively pursue/ send back the people who want to take advantage of a emergency situation. I don't know how. But I just wish we could.

Also I agree with you on that one. Not supporting the war in other countries conflicts would be a great start too, if that is what you mean.
includes weapons trade.
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Old 11-14-2015, 12:00 PM   #89
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i hope this doesn't feel "too soon," but i've seen some of this online, and it's sure to be part of the discussion post-Paris in the weeks to come.



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As France enters yet another period of mourning, Lebanon is just emerging from one. Not that you probably heard anything about it. Chris Graham reports.

If you didn’t know better, you could be excused for believing that the planning behind the latest terrorist attack in Paris is about more than just causing widespread death and fear in the West.

It looks like it’s also designed to highlight our selective outrage.

Overnight, dozens of people have been confirmed dead in a series of coordinated attacks in Paris.

News sites have fired up live blogs. Serious news Channels such as Sky are providing blanket 24-hour coverage of the event, and, as with all things tragedy, media are competing with each other for scoops and gory videos.

World leaders are also out in force, condemning the attacks. Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull held a press conference in Berlin a short time ago, after sending out this message of solidarity with the French people.


He was joined by his Foreign Minister Julie Bishop.

Labor’s Tanya Plibersek also tweeted in support.

French president Francois Hollande has declared a national State of Emergency, and closed its borders.

Meanwhile, in a brown part of the world, as the attacks began in Paris, Lebanon was just emerging from a National Day of Mourning, after 43 people were killed and 200 more were injured during a series of coordinated suicide bombings in Beirut.

The attacks – for which ISIS has reportedly claimed responsibility – occurred in the southern Beirut suburb of Burj al-Barajneh, a predominantly Shia community which supports the Hezbollah movement. Not counting Israel’s assaults on Lebanon, the slaughters represent the deadliest bombings in Beirut since the Lebanese civil war ended more than two decades ago.

Like suspicions around the attacks in France, the bombings in Beirut are believed to be in response to Hezbollah’s decision in recent weeks to send in troops to support efforts in northern Syria against Islamic State.

But the bombings in Lebanon drew no tweet from Malcolm Turnbull, no social media statement from Barack Obama, no live media blogs from Western media, no wall-to-wall media coverage. And no twitter hashtags from Australians in solidarity with the Lebanese.

It’s a curious state of affairs, when you consider that there are around three times as many people of Lebanese descent living in Australian, compared to French nationals.


You’d think if we were able to identify with anyone, it would be with Lebanese Australians – after all, so many of them are among the most beloved in this nation, and have contributed enormously to public life.

Marie Bashir – perhaps the most admired Australian governor in history – is the child of Lebanese immigrants. Her husband, Nick Shehadie is as well – he’s the former Lord Mayor of Sydney, and a member of the Australian Rugby Union Hall of Fame.

Queensland parliamentarian Bob Katter has Lebanese roots. Former premier of Victoria, Steve Bracks does as well. One of the most loved rugby league stars of all time is Hazem El Masri. Benny Elias’ parents come from Lebanon. So do Robbie Farah’s.

In the AFL there’s Milham Hanna and Bachar Houli, and the current coach of the Australian Wallabies, Michael Cheika, is of Lebanese descent.

The Lebanese contribution to Australian business has also been immense – John Symond, the founder of Aussie Home Loans has Lebanese heritage. Jacques Nasser is the former CEO of Ford Motors in Australia. Ron Bakir of Crazy Ron’s mobile phones was born in Lebanon, and migrated to Australia.

There have, of course, been many great contributions by Australians with French heritage – commentator Richie Benaud, actress Cate Blanchett, businessman Robert Champion de Crespigny, politician Greg Combet, and the iconic AFL star Ron Cazaly.

But how do we explain our identification with French suffering and our apparent indifference to Lebanese suffering? Or more to the point, how do we explain our indifference to the suffering of people we perceive as different, Lebanese, African, Hazara, Muslim…. Brown people.

The sad reality is, Australia has been here before, and just 11 months ago. A few days before the Charlie Hebdo massacre, terrorist organisation Boko Haram razed the town of Baja in Nigeria, killing more than 2,000 people.

The world’s media – and most of its politicians – were mostly silent. Last month, at least another 30 people were killed in another attack on Nigerian mosques by Boko Haram.

That followed 10 people killed in a coordinated attack near the Maiduguri Airport, again by Boko Haram.

In Islamabad Pakistan, at least 20 people were killed in a suicide attack on minority Shias. That came a day after 12 were killed in an attack on another Shia shrine, this time in the province of Balochistan.

It is the Shia who were manning many of the boats that we turned away a few years ago, as sectarian violence reached unspeakable levels in towns like Quetta in Pakistan. When the Pakistani Taliban targeted the Hazara community in Quetta in September 2010 at the Meezan Chowk (a market in the middle of the city), they managed to kill at least 73 people and injure 160 more. In the background of the bloody carnage is a billboard sponsored by the Australian Government, warning Hazaras against the dangers of getting on a boat to come to Australia.

The Meezan Chouk attack in Quetta, In September 2010. In the background is a billboard sponsored by the Australian Government, warning locals of the danger of getting on a boat to seek asylum.

The Meezan Chouk attack in Quetta, In September 2010. In the background is a billboard sponsored by the Australian Government, warning locals of the danger of getting on a boat to seek asylum.

In September, at least 117 people were killed at a mosque in Nigeria, again at the hands of Boko Haram. The simple fact is, Muslims are far more likely to die at the hands of other Muslims – or more to the point, Islamic extremists who bear no resemblance to average Muslims. They’re also more likely to be killed by Westerners, who are seeking to kill Islamic extremists. The difference is, they’re unlikely to see an outpouring of grief in Australia, or most of the rest of the world. But unlike Parisians, they already live in a state of perpetual terror. That’s why many of them have fled the Middle East for Europe, a reality which prompted this tweet this morning from American movie star Rob Lowe, a man who adequately sums up the outrage and frustration of white bigots everywhere.

The sad reality is that these attacks will increase. You can’t stop five or eight people with a gun and a twisted ideology, just as you can’t stop an American or Australian military with a commercial, strategic and political interest in slaughter.

Westerners are finally being given just a small taste of the constant fear that people from other nations have endured for generations. So solidarity with, and compassion for, the French is a good thing.

But solidarity and compassion for the victims of terrorism everywhere is even better, in particular those who’ve fallen victim to the terrorism sponsored in all our names.


https://newmatilda.com/2015/11/14/pa...f-and-outrage/
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Old 11-14-2015, 12:34 PM   #90
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Indeed, I don't recall hearing anything about an attack in Lebanon in the news. But I am heartbroken to learn about that, too, and send love and thoughts to those affected by that horrible tragedy as well.

I hate to say it, but I think with some parts of the world, those sorts of attacks become so commonplace that people don't consider it all that newsworthy anymore. A place like Paris experiencing something like this is, obviously, not a common thing.

Those attacks SHOULD be in the news, though, if for no other reason than if world leaders are serious about dealing with extremists and terrorist groups, it would be important for them to bring as much attention to these horrible attacks as they can, and condemn them, regardless of how often they happen.

And, as the section Diemen quoted from that link so perfectly noted, world leaders also desperately need to make it clear that these extremists and terrorists DO NOT speak for the vast majority of Muslims. They need to let the Muslim world they've got their support and help, too.

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Originally Posted by mama cass View Post
thanks

we're fine here though, not in Paris right now, but friends are and everyone is shellshocked, stunned - feels like the world is irreparably broken or something... i just can't understand, why Paris, it is just such a multicultural place, so many people from everywhere, all colours and creeds, live there side by side peacefully and respectfully, it's like an attack at the very heart of freedom
You're welcome . And that story about your friend's daughter's school mate-yeow. Thank goodness she escaped.
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Old 11-14-2015, 02:15 PM   #91
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i hope this doesn't feel "too soon," but i've seen some of this online, and it's sure to be part of the discussion post-Paris in the weeks to come.
well... that's not a completely fair article.

there's no doubt that race, religion, etc plays a part in the media's attention... but there's also, sadly, the expectation of violent things in certain parts of the world, regardless of the skin color of the victims.

A bus blowing up in Tel Aviv won't get nearly as much attention as one blowing up in Trafalgar Square.
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Old 11-14-2015, 02:45 PM   #92
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well... that's not a completely fair article.

there's no doubt that race, religion, etc plays a part in the media's attention... but there's also, sadly, the expectation of violent things in certain parts of the world, regardless of the skin color of the victims.

A bus blowing up in Tel Aviv won't get nearly as much attention as one blowing up in Trafalgar Square.


i tend to agree with this. "whatabout"-ism can only go so far.

but i think that's also why the three (arguably) greatest cities on earth -- NYC, London, Paris -- have come under direct attack. it draws our attention because it isn't supposed to happen there, and because those three cities are where most people, if they've traveled, want to travel to. i believe Paris is the most visited city in the world. i think that's some of the psychology behind it. the sense that it could happen to you, that's what they want to create.

i suppose it's like when a white girl goes missing in Aruba.
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Old 11-14-2015, 03:05 PM   #93
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How do we change a belief? Especially one that offers such a reward for causing so much harm to others outside of the faith?

Christianity went thru some civil war/fighting many years ago, but have since learned to stop and adapt more to a secular society (and the societies granted them freedom to express their faith). But those battles were done with such primitive weapons, less connection to the entire world...people on the other side of the world had little to fear of the crusades. That's not the same with ISIS. They have the means to strike almost anywhere, and with weapons to cause mass harm.

There are plenty of moderate to liberal Muslims in the world. The problem is we rarely hear their voices out of their own fear for safety.

Many holy books call for death for breaking rules, for being an enemy of the faith, but only one religion seems to follow through with it. How does the Muslim world fight back against such barbaric ideas and actions? Who stands up to them?

I don't see what kind of response the West can make here. You can't bomb people's beliefs. And you can't keep killing and invading thinking it will eliminate the bad apples. ISIS wants us to invade, wants more involvement so it can succeed in its own self fulfilling prophecy.

It's such a complicated issue. The humanitarian effort alone is more than most countries can handle. Do we just step aside and let the Muslim world kill itself till if figures out its extremist problem? Seems as though the extremists are already in power.

Just no clue


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Old 11-14-2015, 04:32 PM   #94
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It's such a complicated issue. The humanitarian effort alone is more than most countries can handle. Do we just step aside and let the Muslim world kill itself till if figures out its extremist problem? Seems as though the extremists are already in power.
That seems to ignore the geopolitics of the issue. The Russian plane bomb and the Beirut blasts didn't have much to do with faith imo.
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Old 11-14-2015, 05:02 PM   #95
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The problem it seems to me is that Muslin extremists are trying to goad a "pitiless" response that will kill a great deal of other Muslims. And the cycle will continue.
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Old 11-14-2015, 05:07 PM   #96
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i hope this doesn't feel "too soon," but i've seen some of this online, and it's sure to be part of the discussion post-Paris in the weeks to come.
It does.
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Old 11-14-2015, 05:39 PM   #97
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i hope this doesn't feel "too soon," but i've seen some of this online, and it's sure to be part of the discussion post-Paris in the weeks to come.
Whenever I read this sort of thing, it reminds me of this piece, which I think has a rather good point:

Impossible vanity of caring for everything at once

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In other words: you write about X, but what about Y and Z? You clearly don't care about them ... this charge is that one does not care about a particular issue because one has chosen to write about something else.

Since then, I have regularly noted this species of reply in conversation, newspaper commentary and on television. It seems a common feature of public and private debate. And it is almost always a mistake. It is unreasonable and frequently self-contradictory. I dub it the Fallacy of Inferred Insensitivity.

...

The point is that it is irrational to move, without evidence, from this focus to any one explanation for bias. It is poor reasoning; heavy on rhetoric, light on facts.

Ironically, the Fallacy of Inferred Insensitivity also demonstrates a curious lack of human sympathy. When confronted with some issue of ethical and political importance, the critic's first response is to reply with the long equivalent of, ''Yes, but ...''

It is not to empathise profoundly, demonstrate why it is not as it seems, or to pitch in and help. Instead, it is to point to all the other ethical or political problems in the world, and to vilify the speaker or author for ignoring them.

...

Sadly, there is always more cruelty, exploitation or misadventure. It waxes and wanes, but it seems endemic to existence.

So the question is not, ''Do we care?'' but, ''Is it humanly possible to care simultaneously about all of it, and to do so in a single speech, or piece of writing?'' And the answer is, of course, a very straightforward ''no''.
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Old 11-14-2015, 05:51 PM   #98
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It does.

I'm sorry about that. I understand how sensitive this is.

Given the Lebanese flag profile photos I'm starting to see on Facebook, it seems some people are comfortable talking about these things.

Reminds me of the "Je suis Ahmed" hashtag.
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Old 11-14-2015, 06:44 PM   #99
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You're welcome . And that story about your friend's daughter's school mate-yeow. Thank goodness she escaped.
thanks x

it was a young boy and he was there with his dad - cannot begin to imagine how terrifying it must have been to be in that situation with your child - both escaped thank goodness!

have since heard my daughter's schoolfriend was stuck on the metro just under Bastille during the shootings, utter panic and then got evacuated by the police, and then another friend of a friend was in a restaurant nearby which locked its doors and shutters when gunshots were heard nearby, and kept everyone inside until 3am when things had calmed down

tonight we ended up going out with frenchie friends as a sort of antidote even though i really didn't feel like going any where - went to a tiny local concert, followed by a restaurant, out in good company til after midnight, doing all the things that got attacked last night - we will fucking hold on to our freedoms

and i think re. Irvine's article, it's the shock factor - Paris, France, the concept is meant to be Liberte, Fraternite, Egalite, and thing is, we're just not used to "religious" wars here in this day and age (historically yes, but France battled that a loooong time ago, and its whole constitution is built around secularity because of its history of religious bloodshed) - i think it's the fact that IS want to bring the war out of the Middle East and into Europe - and what happened last night certainly feels like an act of war

we're a multicultural society, anything and everything goes, my daughter's school friends are a sweet mix of kids from all backgrounds atheists, catholics, protestants, Jews and Muslims, and that is meant to be acceptable here, we're meant to be tolerant, to co-exist and respect each other's beliefs and freedoms, live and let live

the extremists are trying to stoke up hatred amongst the French against the local Muslim communities, to divide France, and ostracise and radicalise the young - i just hope people can see thru this and hope that the far right will not gain any more ground and cause more damage - real worrying times and just have no idea what the future will bring

eta: articles like those that bring up the "colour" card are a little bit insulting - the author should take a trip to Paris and see how multicultural it is - Parisians of all different colours are reeling from these events right now
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Old 11-14-2015, 06:59 PM   #100
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i hope this doesn't feel "too soon," but i've seen some of this online, and it's sure to be part of the discussion post-Paris in the weeks to come.
It's definitely worth discussion, though I could have sworn I heard/read a different tone to the Beirut attacks when they were reported ie. labeling the particular area as a 'Hezbollah stronghold' which I found a bit distasteful.
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