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Old 07-05-2013, 04:20 AM   #21
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Carrying over from the marriage thread:

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You're welcome - but in defense of Indy, I tend to think that he will push to the edge of an opinion in order to see the limits of the logic/feeling of a particular issue. To that extent he succeeds for the Right where others here succeed for the Left (and he is surely outnumbered).

I think I was more like that 10 years ago. Now, I try to speak more from my own conscience - which is more subjective I know - because it seems more and more to me that being truly objective is downright impossible. Sometimes my views seem Left, sometimes Right - but I truly don't care about that anymore.

What you just said is exaclty what I meant, Indy tries to pass off things as facts and leaves them at that, while I'm more interested in his opinion and the reason behind it. That's why I've tried to discuss with him various times, but he always ignored me for some reason..


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I think that a single parent situation is certainly unfortunate and not the ideal. However, I still to think that even this is better than homosexual parents and please let me explain my reasoning - as weak as it may be. With a single parent - the model is broken, cut in half, but it's still a remnant of the actual model (and perhaps a step-parent will eventual come in). Homosexual parents are not a model at all (as I define "parents" with roles of a female mother and male father).

Now, I grew up in a broken home. I had a troubled childhood and spent time with a single mother, then an abusive step-dad, foster homes and then Catholic shelter for boys (believe it or not, I was not touched by any priests - instead I found them to be very intelligent and caring).

But continuing on your logic, I see what you mean there. If the parent eventually gets a new relationship, the model is there again. But, now let's see the situation that I know a lot of lesbian couples have for their children, and how I'd want it to be for my own children, when the time is right(and well, depending if I end up with a woman or a man, of course, but seeing as I have a girlfriend atm I'll just stay hopeful that things work out between us).
They conceive by a sperm donor they know, usually a close friend of the family. This way, the child actually has a father, and the biological father spends time with the child every now and then, he's just not in the relationship with the mother. So the child has both role models, plus an extra mother. That should fit a bit closer to you ideals then, right? Even though the father doesn't live in the same house, he can still be there to fulfill his role model expecntancies.

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I had crappy foster parents that hit me over the head with Pentecostalism (took many years for the Holy Spirit to overcome my bias against Christianity because of this family) - and in general I think it's fair to say that I lacked the unconditional love children require (well, I got a lot from Grandma - Grandma's rock). That being said - had I been sent to a homosexual couple during those crazy years I'm not sure I would not have survived the confusion, the social stigma, and yes, my own homophobia (the condition which the current media labels heterosexuals that simply cannot understand homosexual tendencies). I do not wish them harm - but to this day, I must admit, I still get a sense of shock when I see two men holding hands walking around Disneyland.
You state that you wuold've been confused if you had been sent to a gay foster couple. But most of these cases we're talking about aren't adoption of older children, as far as I know. What would've happened if you were adopted as a baby, and raised by gay parents? We can't possibly know that, but I would think that you might have a different view, as every child considers their parents their heroes at some point. And children tend to care less about race and everything we all stigmatize or may have stigmatized (see the notable story in the Boy with the Striped Pyjamas for example).

I know a boy who has been raised in the construction I spoke of above, and he doesn't hate his mothers at all. He's rather proud of them, and his biological father that they made things work just for him. He's not gay himself(we dated for a while, that's how I know him, but we're good friends now), but he doesn't seem to have any issue with his upbringing. Sure there were tough times, but every kid goes through those. I was raised by straight parents, my dad is an absolute asshole, I rarely take friends home because of that. In my childhood most of my friends were afraid to come over because of that. Yet I still ended up just fine..
Would I have done better in a situation where I had two parents love me? Probably. Would I have cared whether they were male, female or one of each? Probably not. I'd rather have two loving mothers than a loving mother and an asshole father...

Can you elaborate why you find two men/women holding hands shocking?

I wouldn't call you a homophobe per se, you admit you don't understand homosexuality, that's fine. At least you can talk to one in a civilized matter.

But unless you hate gay people, and want them to die or get tortured because of who they are, or try to 'cure' them like some priests, I don't consider you a homophobe.

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I will admit I can be wrong on this, since I cannot look into the hearts of people. I guess it seems to me that it's forcing pieces of puzzle together we know don't fit - and it isn't the children crying for a homosexual couple to adopt them. These little ones with broken lives, all they want is a mommy and a daddy, the model - and I think they deserve that and we should give that to them as much as possible.
To your last point: I don't think these broken children want a mommy and a daddy. These broken children need and want somebody to love them.. I don't think they give a damn about the gender.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 07-05-2013, 06:57 AM   #22
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Yes.
I think it would be fair for you to give an explanation of why it's necessarily less optimal than a straight family conceiving. Specifically, what is the trouble with it being two of the same? Really, truly examine your assumptions here. What is it that straights are capable of doing reliably that gays are not capable of doing at all?

Here's a question to consider while you think of it. The common saw it that children need male and female influences in their lives. This makes a very big assumption that the way we "do" gender and gender roles is good and worth perpetuating. Looking at our society, there is a lot of room for argument there. There's a lot about gender roles that we DON'T want to perpetuate, frankly. The way femininity is tied to sexualization and appearance and masculinity is associated with lack of emotional connection and dominance is simply not healthy. So what is it that straights can provide here that gays can't, when in fact they are more adept at creating a balanced and equitable gender that we are? Children need men and women in their lives, yes. But there's no reason children gays can't have that. It just won't be in a love relationship between the people who live in their house.
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Old 07-05-2013, 07:32 AM   #23
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Jeevey, check the last pages of the SSM thread, AEON explained it in more detail there.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:06 AM   #24
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Not really a fair comparison is it? You are taking the best case scenario and comparing it to the worst case scenario.

But if you're going to ban SSA, you must be willing to say that, yes, always and in all ways, couples with different gentalia are better parents.

The Lohans are a better family than Neil Patrick Harris and his husband.
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:09 AM   #25
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Are you referring to women that intentionally have and then raise a child without a father? If you are - then no, I don't think it is wise - with or without tons of money.
But would your prevet them from doing that by law? Or, heck, it's CA, by popular referendum.

After all, society should be able to make its own laws about adoption, right? Why don't you have a Proposition 9 where you bad not just all adoptions but all children from being born to anyone other than married heterosexuals.

And if we're thinking about the best interestsof the child, the parents must not only be married but they must have health insurance. And they must make at least $50k per year.

It's the ideal and what's best for the children. Our laws should reflect these beliefs.
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Old 07-05-2013, 11:31 AM   #26
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Didn't Russia just ban same sex couples from adopting? Of course they also banned Americans from adopting Russian kids so I think it's less about them hating gays than Russia just really fucking hates orphans.
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Old 07-05-2013, 11:33 AM   #27
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But would your prevet them from doing that by law? Or, heck, it's CA, by popular referendum.

After all, society should be able to make its own laws about adoption, right? Why don't you have a Proposition 9 where you bad not just all adoptions but all children from being born to anyone other than married heterosexuals.

And if we're thinking about the best interestsof the child, the parents must not only be married but they must have health insurance. And they must make at least $50k per year.

It's the ideal and what's best for the children. Our laws should reflect these beliefs.
There are many good points made in several of the posts - so I will do my best to address them in a general sense.

1) My biggest internal conflict is how far my personal beliefs should shape our legal system (as much as I can actually influence that). There are some "slam dunk" examples like first degree murder, but there are numerous other examples that aren't so easy to mandate (like what two consenting adults want to do with each other)

2) I get more cautious when it comes to children. The children are not "consenting" to anything. While my conscious is clear on this issue - gay/lesbian parenting is a false model for a family - I'm not sure I would say that I would make it downright illegal in our present society anymore than I can make bad heterosexual parenting illegal. However, I would personally discourage any would be gay/lesbian parents from adopting or artificially inseminating.

3) Now, to fellow Christians, I would pray that they examine their hearts and minds and ask - is this part of God's intention? Is more like the Kingdom of Heaven or the Kingdom of Pop Culture? Is this is a step forward to making earth more like God's realm - or a step back?
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Old 07-05-2013, 11:41 AM   #28
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Didn't Russia just ban same sex couples from adopting? Of course they also banned Americans from adopting Russian kids so I think it's less about them hating gays than Russia just really fucking hates orphans.


Or Russians hating Americans?
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Old 07-05-2013, 11:42 AM   #29
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3) Now, to fellow Christians, I would pray that they examine their hearts and minds and ask - is this part of God's intention? Is more like the Kingdom of Heaven or the Kingdom of Pop Culture? Is this is a step forward to making earth more like God's realm - or a step back?
Unfortunately we don't live in the kingdom of Heaven, we live on earth which due to being a generally shitty place has left millions of children homeless and family-less. They need somewhere to go, anywhere. Even if it's to Mr. And Mrs. Lohan, or Mr. And Mr. Smith. Because no matter how less than ideal it is, its better than no parents, no support, and no constant role models. Even if you feel that homosexuality is wrong, and I'll admit as a Christian I don't know exactly what the answer is regarding it, I cannot picture a gay couple standing before God and Him telling them that their raising of children was wrong, regardless of whether their homosexuality is a sin or not. I can only picture Him praising them for giving a child a home and family who wouldn't have otherwise had one.

For this same reason I feel uncomfortable about artificial insemination/surrogates/etc. I'm not saying I think they should be illegal, but I just think that like I said there's already so many children that need homes it seems like a selfish thing to do.
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Old 07-05-2013, 11:43 AM   #30
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Do you reckon it was part of God's intention that some people are excluded from things that are normal to others?

God is love, and he loves everyone equally. But some more equal than others?
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 07-05-2013, 11:57 AM   #31
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I get more cautious when it comes to children. The children are not "consenting" to anything. While my conscious is clear on this issue - gay/lesbian parenting is a false model for a family - I'm not sure I would say that I would make it downright illegal in our present society anymore than I can make bad heterosexual parenting illegal. However, I would personally discourage any would be gay/lesbian parents from adopting or artificially inseminating.
I'm a bit troubled by the term "false model." To me it implies that a gay couple can't be good parents. Do you mean that implication, or simply that it strays from your "ideal" too much?

To explore "false model" a bit further, is it only the lack if opposing genders that makes it so? As far as raising children to be well adjusted, productive members of society, I can think of several factors far more important than gender.

I guess I'd like you to explain that term in a bit more detail if you could.

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3) Now, to fellow Christians, I would pray that they examine their hearts and minds and ask - is this part of God's intention? Is more like the Kingdom of Heaven or the Kingdom of Pop Culture? Is this is a step forward to making earth more like God's realm - or a step back?
To me, God's pretty clear on the primacy of love over all else. Children need loving parents. As is evidenced by pac mule and countless others, they don't need one of each gender or even more than one in order to feel loved and live happy, productive lives. I think God's intention (as unknowable as that is by human hearts and minds) is not to bar children from access to the love of capable, committed and nurturing parents simply because of gender role issues.

I think, quite frankly, that God is most likely shaking his head at the obsession over homosexuality that so many of his followers can't seem to get past.
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Old 07-05-2013, 11:59 AM   #32
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To me, God's pretty clear on the primacy of love over all else. Children need loving parents. As is evidenced by pac mule and countless others, they don't need one of each gender or even more than one in order to feel loved and live happy, productive lives. I think God's intention (as unknowable as that is by human hearts and minds) is not to bar children from access to the love of capable, committed and nurturing parents simply because of gender role issues.
This is what I was trying to say but couldn't quite find the words. Thank you
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:03 PM   #33
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I cannot picture a gay couple standing before God and Him telling them that their raising of children was wrong, regardless of whether their homosexuality is a sin or not. I can only picture Him praising them for giving a child a home and family who wouldn't have otherwise had one.
Well said.

And I know it's been said several times recently, but I'm really encouraged by the level of discourse that's been happening in here lately. It's really awesome to see and take part in.
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:06 PM   #34
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While my conscious is clear on this issue - gay/lesbian parenting is a false model for a family


you don't think gay people can form a family?
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:18 PM   #35
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Do you reckon it was part of God's intention that some people are excluded from things that are normal to others?

God is love, and he loves everyone equally. But some more equal than others?
Yes, God is love, and he loves us all equally. However, we are born into weakness - with our own mind always set on the self until it is taught/saved to do otherwise.

I don't understand why things are the way they are. I do not understand why God seems to punish us for an act that took place thousands - perhaps tens of thousands of years ago. I do understand why Jesus is delaying his coming. I do not understand why I was born to be so weak - and then have that held against me at my Judgement.

Yet - despite such ignorance, I am learning to trust the fact that God must be all loving and perfectly just - otherwise He would not be God, because He is by definition all loving and perfectly just. So, when I come across Scripture and I don't see perfect harmony - I more easily accept that I may not fully comprehend the why, that God is often a Mystery - but that I will obey what is written as best as I can understand it. Why? Because over the years it almost always seems to work out best for myself - and those around me. In other words - Scripture, and in particular the New Testament - has earned its trust with me.

I still pray for healing in my areas of weakness. I will easily concede I'm still self-willed and miss the mark very often. I know my logic is sloppy and my language is non-persuasive. But I do know this - the stone, it has been moved - and this leads to me realize that 1) I need healing and 2) that I desire healing.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus approaches a man that had been paralyzed for 38 years: "When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” (John 5:6). Over the years I have found this question striking - do you want to be healed? Of course I do - or so I thought. I always thought it was obvious I wanted healing until I looked at certain aspects of my own heart, and realized - heck no, I like this or that about myself, it's part of my identity now - why would I want to be healed? So, the question that Jesus asks is less about asking permission to heal - and more of a challenge.

Since I know that many people here could care less about the Bible. That's fine. So let's take the same challenge into the world of biotechnology. It has been argued here in the past, that homosexuality is most often genetic, not environmental - that it is programmed by DNA. I've also heard it stated, "why would I choose this life for myself?" Well, we've mapped the genome, and it's only a matter of time before we can modify those genes. Would people at that time then choose to be "healed" in a very real sense of their afflictions, even their orientation?
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:20 PM   #36
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you don't think gay people can form a family?
I think a baseball team or army unit can form a family. But that is not the model we were discussing.
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:33 PM   #37
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Everyone biologically has the ability to be a parent, either by them-self or with a partner, opposite sex or not. Should my mother and grandmother not have raised me and given me up for adoption instead since I wouldn't have a male parent figure?
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:38 PM   #38
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I've actually had a religious upbringing, so I know the story you meant. The fun part is, my perspective on the same event is rather different. The whole question do you "want" to be healed to me shows that us humans are capable of much more than we think.

Too often, people give up on things, their self esteem gets low, they don't even bother because they are convinced they won't make it. Yet self esteem is a weird thing. Once you start thinking you have it, people treat you differently and you'll actually gain confidence by the way they treat you. Same appllies for perseverance. If you want to achieve things, you have to try and believe you can do it. Only then you can persevere. You have to WANT it.

Funnily enough it could be said about this case. You may not understand homosexuality, so you may not accept it as okay. But in order to do so, you're going to need to want to understand. And I think that's exactly where the problem lies with a lot of religious people.
They do not want to understand...
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:39 PM   #39
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I'm a bit troubled by the term "false model." To me it implies that a gay couple can't be good parents. Do you mean that implication, or simply that it strays from your "ideal" too much?
Yes, it strays too far. In the model I gave - which you can disagree with - is that of a male father and female mother with children. Now, the model can be incomplete (no kids, one parent leaves or dies), but inserting a second mother or second father makes it false to the definition.

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To explore "false model" a bit further, is it only the lack if opposing genders that makes it so? As far as raising children to be well adjusted, productive members of society, I can think of several factors far more important than gender.
Those are all important, Diemen - I could never deny that. And if gay/lesbian parents do adopt children - I would certainly hope and pray that the best can be made of the situation.

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I guess I'd like you to explain that term in a bit more detail if you could.
I hope my responses above at least helped you understand position - even though it is not persuasive. I'm not that eloquent or as equipped to defend this point as others may be.

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To me, God's pretty clear on the primacy of love over all else. Children need loving parents. As is evidenced by pac mule and countless others, they don't need one of each gender or even more than one in order to feel loved and live happy, productive lives.
True. But pac mule also shared his desire for a father, even though his mother and grandmother made the best of the situation. Homosexual parents are purposely denying a mother or father when they choose to have children.

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I think God's intention (as unknowable as that is by human hearts and minds) is not to bar children from access to the love of capable, committed and nurturing parents simply because of gender role issues.
Yes, love is supreme no doubt. But in this case - there is some amount of choice involved. For example - if we have two couples (one heterosexual and one homosexual) that are equal in almost every modern worldly sense (income, education, stability...etc) - and both are capable of offering a child love, would it be best for the child to go to the homosexual couple of the heterosexual couple?

Again - it seems that the only defense for gay/lesbian parenting that I'm reading is that there can be love despite the less than optimal circumstance the child is placed into, not because of it.

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I think, quite frankly, that God is most likely shaking his head at the obsession over homosexuality that so many of his followers can't seem to get past.
That is probably very true - and it is not my usual topic among my friends and family. Yet, for some reason, in this forum - it generates the most discussion.
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:45 PM   #40
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Funnily enough it could be said about this case. You may not understand homosexuality, so you may not accept it as okay. But in order to do so, you're going to need to want to understand. And I think that's exactly where the problem lies with a lot of religious people.
They do not want to understand...
Good twist

You may very well be right.
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