Immigration

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by digitize

Immigration of all stripes is likely an economic boon in the long run.

Agreed, if there is a streamlined path to citizenship. I'm thinking that if even a small portion of the current non-citizen labor pool were to gain citizenship, they would then enter the workforce at minimum wage rather than below it, making the competitive gap in wages much smaller. As citizens they then add to the tax base and likely become more regular consumers. Furthermore the amount of bureaucracy devoted to tracking migrant work diminishes. So an easier path to citizenship would look like an economic win from almost all angles.

[Diemen]

Originally Posted by bigjohn2441

however the discussion is more interesting (and amusing) to me when things are somewhat "belligerent"

And therein lies the problem. As is evidenced in this thread, if the beginning post is belligerent, then others will be tempted will feel compelled to respond in kind. And that's unfortunate and not your fault, but you also know full well that it would come. Toss in a good smattering of "libtard" and "fuckwit" and other immature insults, and the thread turns to crap in no time. You might find it amusing but it's a pretty shitty thing to hope for threads that practically beg people to get personal.

This goes for everyone and not just bigjohn:
If you want to have an open discussion, please, do so. Argue in good faith. In a civil tone. Lay off the insults. Resist the urge to get personal. Don't let other people's immaturity give you the excuse to stoop to their level. Argue the topic and not the person.

Give to charity. Help an old lady across the street. Be the change you want to see in the world. Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. Visualize world pe---- woah... what just happened?

[bigjohn2441]

Originally Posted by BVS

Yeah, it's a shame too, because there could have been a real discussion. And needs to be.

This is a very complicated issue, and no one on any side seems to want to really discuss it.

There's a moral issue here.
There's a safety issue here.
There's an economic issue here.(both ways, the who pays for this and the rise of goods and services when farm and hospitality labor has to go legitimate)

Is there a race issue here? Absolutely, but both sides hide behind it.


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You aren't going to believe this but I just spent the last 20-30 minutes or so writing my REAL, well-thought out, rational, no ranting or raving antics response to this but when I clicked post it came up that I was logged out because I guess I spent too much time writing it and I lost the whole fucking thing.

It was maybe 3x longer than my original post and might've made a decent college paper.

[nbelcik]

Originally Posted by bigjohn2441

You aren't going to believe this but I just spent the last 20-30 minutes or so writing my REAL, well-thought out, rational, no ranting or raving antics response to this but when I clicked post it came up that I was logged out because I guess I spent too much time writing it and I lost the whole fucking thing.

It was maybe 3x longer than my original post and might've made a decent college paper.

You lost all credibility the moment you started calling people libtards.


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[bigjohn2441]

Originally Posted by nbelcik

You lost all credibility the moment you started calling people libtards.


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You mean after I was called a racist and "fucking arsehole?"

[U2DMfan]

Originally Posted by Diemen

This goes for everyone and not just bigjohn:
If you want to have an open discussion, please, do so. Argue in good faith. In a civil tone. Lay off the insults. Resist the urge to get personal. Don't let other people's immaturity give you the excuse to stoop to their level. Argue the topic and not the person.

And also, bigjohn

1. Click this > Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2. Read it.
3. Stop doing it.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by nbelcik

Cost of Illegal Immigrants The cost of illegal immigration to government budgets is debated, but is likely far more modest than the numbers trotted out by anti-immigration activist. Based on the cost-benefit analysis, one could make the argument that we should deport lower income Americans because they cost money. But we don't because we're a humane and caring country, even though some of our citizens don't want us to be. Illegal immigrants provide a boost to the economy and entire industries such as agriculture are dependent on immigrant labor. To simply deport them all would be very bad for our economy.


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I wouldn't go that far.

[mikal]

Madwife! Madwife! Madwife!


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[nbelcik]

Originally Posted by bigjohn2441

You mean after I was called a racist and "fucking arsehole?"

Other people calling you names doesn't make it okay to also name call. You're not a racist for opposing immigration (even though you're wrong about the impact of immigration on this country). But saying that immigrants bring disease into the country (when actually a higher percentage of immigrants are vaccinated than Americans) is a classic nativist argument that's been used throughout history and is widely viewed as a racist argument. I don't think you're a racist, but some of your arguments veer dangerously close to classic racist arguments against immigration.


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[nbelcik]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

I wouldn't go that far.

We're better than most of the world, but compared to other Western democracies, not so much.


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[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by bigjohn2441

As long is they are WHITE. Isn't that the response you're after.

But seriously, most highly intelligent foreigners with skills in high demand get visas and come here legally, not jump a fence or come in by banana boat.

The people that come here illegally aren't usually in that category are they?

Don't put words in my mouth. I insinuated no such thing and would prefer it if you would not insinuate that I'm racist. I civilly asked you a question in order to get a civvilized discussion going, but apparently that seems hardly possible in this thread. Let's try again.

Sure there's a big part that come here legally, but there's also highly intelligent people from third world countries that get no chance to study or get a good job to afford the visa and trip. Most people don't even get the chance, while if they are given the chance here, they could easily grow out to contribute greatly to our society.

[cobl04]

Originally Posted by Diemen

And therein lies the problem. As is evidenced in this thread, if the beginning post is belligerent, then others will be tempted will feel compelled to respond in kind. And that's unfortunate and not your fault, but you also know full well that it would come. Toss in a good smattering of "libtard" and "fuckwit" and other immature insults, and the thread turns to crap in no time. You might find it amusing but it's a pretty shitty thing to hope for threads that practically beg people to get personal.

This goes for everyone and not just bigjohn:
If you want to have an open discussion, please, do so. Argue in good faith. In a civil tone. Lay off the insults. Resist the urge to get personal. Don't let other people's immaturity give you the excuse to stoop to their level. Argue the topic and not the person.

Give to charity. Help an old lady across the street. Be the change you want to see in the world. Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. Visualize world pe---- woah... what just happened?

Just me speaking, but I refuse to be civil to someone who comes in and seriously posts this:

Originally Posted by bigjohn2441

So by your thinking we should have NO immigration laws and let ANYONE who want's to come here that wants to, including those without a pot to piss in (nor any sort of skill or trade) from 3rd world nations. And when they come here and can't support themselves (I know, impossible in this job market ) who is going to support them? How about we take 50-75% or more of YOUR wages if you feel that strongly about it?

And also by that logic you are comfortable with rapists, murderers, and career criminals immigrating here without any of those pesky immigration laws, right?

And also all the people with incurable and/or contagious diseases and STDs can all come too right? Maybe we can all pay for their treatment as well.

And then he has the gall to whinge and complain. Pathetic.

[Diemen]

If you refuse to be civil, then maybe you should just not post.

[cobl04]

Great idea.

[bigjohn2441]

[mikal]

Could you possibly not use the word "tard" going forward?


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[Diemen]

Bigjohn, I'm having a hard time not interpreting that post as trolling/willfully ignoring my comments.

I think I've been more than patient, but you're pushing it.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by mikal

Could you possibly not use the word "tard" going forward?


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Right?


Sent from

[nbelcik]

Not to mention "tard" is a pretty offensive word. Bigjohn's hole just keeps getting deeper and deeper.


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[Galeongirl]

Perhaps this thread has served its course. A couple of us tried to get a civil discussion going, but get the same treatment as everyone else. Guess this guy is just not capable of responding in a normal, calm manner.