Cosmos Thoughts 2: U2 and Radio Hits

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CosmoKramer

Rock n' Roll Doggie
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I have read from time to time criticism when U2 (Bono really) makes a statement that they want to be back on the radio. Heck, I read a poster here complain that Invisible was U2 by the numbers.

With that said, if "U2 by the numbers", "hits" or "radio friendly songs" =

Bloody Sunday
Pride
Bad
With or without You
Still Haven't Found
Streets
Desire
Angel Of Harlem
All I Want is You
One
Mysterious Ways
Stay
Beautiful Day
Walk On
Vertigo
Magnificent
Invisible
And many others

Then YES, Ill take a triple album of that please and a concert of 25 of these songs! The reason I got into U2 was because of these "U2 by the numbers"/ "radio friendly"songs. The reasons I am still into U2 is because of these songs.

I mean if you really like steak, maybe you like it rare, perhaps you don't mind it medium or well done on occasion as it gives a different spin on your classic meal. Maybe you like a little lobster or crab meat with your steak once in a while but if you want your steak to taste like chicken or find steak to be bland......well maybe you just don't like steak!
 
The thing with the songs you mentioned is that they're all distinct and part of a journey (up to 2000, which is when they started relying on sounds and parts they can do in their sleep). Pride, Desire, Stay, and Mysterious Ways have nothing to do with each other.

U2-by-numbers doesn't mean great singles, it means U2 using rehashing and relying on their trademarks, or what people think they are. The U2 of the 2000s sound much more like the popular idea of what U2 sounded like in the 80s than U2 ever did then. People who want U2 to avoid those tropes don't dislike U2, it's just that they've been done to death, and done better than whatever they will do now.

They're best work was always made when they were trying to move forward. The first song on your list was from an album that was explicitly designed to get away from U2-by-numbers, and Sunday Bloody Sunday remains a unique song in their catalog.
 
U2-by-numbers doesn't mean great singles, it means U2 using rehashing and relying on their trademarks, or what people think they are. The U2 of the 2000s sound much more like the popular idea of what U2 sounded like in the 80s than U2 ever did then. People who want U2 to avoid those tropes don't dislike U2, it's just that they've been done to death, and done better than whatever they will do now.
So they are doing something now that sounds like what they did before, but they didn't actually sound like that back then and now they have done that to death.

It's no wonder I always thought of U2-by-Numbers as a batshit crazy concept.

And, beyond that, even if I would like to go along with your line of reasoning, I could only see how people would regard half of How to Dismantle ... in this light
 
So they are doing something now that sounds like what they did before, but they didn't actually sound like that back then and now they have done that to death.

It's no wonder I always thought of U2-by-Numbers as a batshit crazy concept.

And, beyond that, even if I would like to go along with your line of reasoning, I could only see how people would regard half of How to Dismantle ... in this light

Without willful obtuseness, this board would die.

Obviously U2 used "traditional U2isms." Of course they sounded like Walk On. They just didn't sound like that as much as people think they did. Their sound was varied and evolved from album to album. U2 by numbers is a pretty basic concept, same any band that had a style defined by a few songs that have grown in the popular consciousness to represent the entirety of the sound.

And yes, it applies to half of Bomb. Does my line of reasoning have to apply to every single song? Again, obtuseness is the lifeblood of Interference.
 
I looked it up in the dictionary:

U2 by numbers - an embarrassingly lazy argument used on interference.com to describe songs they don't like.
 
No, it's not. If you read my fucking post you'd see a definition, but then you wouldn't have had the opportunity to make a snarky post. I'm really happy I'm not you: you troll these pages looking for things to disagree with and never go through the trouble of stating an opinion of your own or elucidating a point. You must be miserable.
 
About the post 2000 work:

HTDAAB definitely sounds like a band trying to forget the 90's ever happened.

I didn't get that with ATYCLB, which is funny since it's the record which immediately followed that decade. It sounded like a band aging gracefully, and there were some subtle touches of their electronic 90's output within the production.

It's almost like U2 went "that's the U2 everyone likes! Good clean optimistic stuff!" and then proceeded to make BOMB.

Well, no. The mainstream just got sick of U2 being "experimental" and ATYCLB was a fresh start.

It's all about timing. And ATYCLB was as successful a reinvention as AB was.

NLOTH may have started as an album that was meant to shake things up and try new things, but obviously they got cold feet and as a result put those happy songs in there because hey, it worked with ATYCLB and BOMB, so that must be what the people want, right?

No, the mainstream audience is very fickle and responds the best when you marry surprise with well-written songs. Also, I believe BOMB worked for them because it was only a few years after 9/11, and their optimistic music connected in times of grief and uncertainty. Not with me, but I can understand why it would for the mainstream audience.

Invisble was their chance to do something novel. But it just didn't happen. Maybe it's not U2 by the numbers, but it just doesn't have the shock of anything new. It's too familiar. Is familiar an okay word to describe it?

However, U2 are in their 50's and as that article in the other thread makes very clear, U2 should follow their muse and see where it takes them. Their endless pursuit of a huge around the globe hit isn't working for them. Time to change direction.
 
About the post 2000 work:

HTDAAB definitely sounds like a band trying to forget the 90's ever happened.

I didn't get that with ATYCLB, which is funny since it's the record which immediately followed that decade. It sounded like a band aging gracefully, and there were some subtle touches of their electronic 90's output within the production.

It's almost like U2 went "that's the U2 everyone likes! Good clean optimistic stuff!" and then proceeded to make BOMB.

Well, no. The mainstream just got sick of U2 being "experimental" and ATYCLB was a fresh start.

It's all about timing. And ATYCLB was as successful a reinvention as AB was.

NLOTH may have started as an album that was meant to shake things up and try new things, but obviously they got cold feet and as a result put those happy songs in there because hey, it worked with ATYCLB and BOMB, so that must be what the people want, right?

No, the mainstream audience is very fickle and responds the best when you marry surprise with well-written songs. Also, I believe BOMB worked for them because it was only a few years after 9/11, and their optimistic music connected in times of grief and uncertainty. Not with me, but I can understand why it would for the mainstream audience.

Invisble was their chance to do something novel. But it just didn't happen. Maybe it's not U2 by the numbers, but it just doesn't have the shock of anything new. It's too familiar. Is familiar an okay word to describe it?

However, U2 are in their 50's and as that article in the other thread makes very clear, U2 should follow their muse and see where it takes them. Their endless pursuit of a huge around the globe hit isn't working for them. Time to change direction.


And wasn't AB about forgetting the 90's?

Good clean optimism, I'm not sure how anyone can sum up that album as optimism when half the album is about death, mortality, how hard it is to find the beauty.
 
The thing with the songs you mentioned is that they're all distinct and part of a journey (up to 2000, which is when they started relying on sounds and parts they can do in their sleep). Pride, Desire, Stay, and Mysterious Ways have nothing to do with each other.

U2-by-numbers doesn't mean great singles, it means U2 using rehashing and relying on their trademarks, or what people think they are. The U2 of the 2000s sound much more like the popular idea of what U2 sounded like in the 80s than U2 ever did then. People who want U2 to avoid those tropes don't dislike U2, it's just that they've been done to death, and done better than whatever they will do now.

They're best work was always made when they were trying to move forward. The first song on your list was from an album that was explicitly designed to get away from U2-by-numbers, and Sunday Bloody Sunday remains a unique song in their catalog.

I concur with this summary of the state of affairs 100%.

There are certain trademarks to U2's sound that make their songs easily identifiable as U2. The biggest ones are Edge's delay (i.e. the "chiming guitar"), Bono's earnest-sounding delivery, and a general openness to the music. These became U2's hallmarks because, during the period they first arrived and became mega-stars, a lot of their hit songs exhibited those things.

This is not to say that the songs had nothing else to them; merely that those three elements were a common element among most of the songs that people heard on the radio. "I Will Follow", "New Year's Day", "Pride", "Bad", "Where the Streets Have No Name", "ISHFWILF", "All I Want is You". All of these songs, in one form or another, have those trademarks.

But because U2's sound throughout the 80's was still developing, through more sophisticated arrangements, or better production, or better lyric-writing, or added instrumentation...what have you..., at every stage those songs felt fresh and new. So while "I Will Follow" may have delay, wailing vocals, and a general airiness to the sound, it sounds very little like "All I Want Is You", which also happens to bear those three hallmarks.

Then the 90's happened, and U2 deliberately tried to distance themselves from those three hallmarks. The guitar became soaked in distortion (though there was still plenty of delay, it was no longer "chiming"); Bono started to growl and whisper in seduction; and the sonic landscape got crowded and layered.

In the 2000's, they made a deliberate attempt to "reclaim" their sound (or "get back to 4 guys in a room" or what have you). In doing so, they re-embraced the chiming guitar, the earnest lead vocal, and some of the openness to the arrangements. The difference is, and what is disconcerting to many fans, is that this is a deliberate look back at what came before instead of a way to make new sounds. So while in the 80's, those sounds sounded fresh, in the 2000s, they sound stale.

When people talk about "U2 by Numbers", they are referring to the conscious and deliberate decision by U2 to stick close to their trademark sound: the chiming guitar, the earnest vocal, and the uncluttered production, and not force themselves to think outside the box. It's not BAD, per se, it's merely frustrating, because it's as if even the band themselves can't see that it's not their trademark SOUND that creates the great songs, it has always been their DRIVE and RESTLESSNESS that led to the great songs. As the 90s proved, the specific methods and sounds they chose to get to the songs (e.g. "I Will Follow" or "Mofo") aren't really as important as the spirit behind their creation.

Songs like "Invisible" aren't disappointing because they are bad. They are disappointing because they are evidence that the band isn't struggling hard enough to find new ways to express themselves. It's "U2 By Numbers" because, to many listeners, there is a palpable sense that the group (Edge, in particular) are looking over their notes to find out what people like about U2's sound, and trying to summarize what they determine it is. If that's the case, it's totally missing the point of what made U2 a great group in the first place.
 
I think the two of you should go and read U2DMfan's post in the new album thread. There is no look back, Edge is playing how he plays, but instead of making the finding of a new effect to make a sound his focus is on songwriting. He's even said so himself recently his mind is on the structure vs the sound.

I mean honestly if anyone thinks Invisible would fit on any of their 80s albums or as hollow put it, an exec would have detracted this from one of their 80s album, they're listening to the wrong albums.
 
Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey, Episode 2, “Some of the Things That Molecules Do”

If I had to pick one word to describe this episode, it’d be “overstuffed”. Granted, the series has a huge amount of territory to cover; and unlike the original Cosmos, which aired on PBS, this one is subject to the ever-growing commercial demands of Fox, giving it just 44 minutes of television in an hourlong slot. Even so, it seemed to be straining at the seams to fit in every story it wanted to tell.

The episode starts out with the story of how humans turned wolves into the many different breeds of dogs, an example of the power of selection that even creationists don’t deny. (As further evidence of the plasticity of nature, here’s another of my favorite examples of artificial selection: broccoli, cauliflower, kale, cabbage, collard greens and Brussels sprouts are all domesticated versions of the same wild species, Brassica oleracea.)

We’re shown a montage of how the eye evolved in Cambrian seas, from a simple light-sensitive spot to a true pinhole-camera eye with a lens, refuting creationist claims of how “half an eye” would be useless. This sequence did a good job showing the selective advantage of each step, although the split-screen presentation – one side showing the physical changes wrought by natural selection, the other showing what the world looked like through those evolving eyes – was a good idea in principle but strained my attention trying to keep up with it.

The straightforward, no-nonsense explanation of how evolution works was very good, and I loved the Tree of Life – a visual metaphor in the form of a gigantic tree whose branches are adorned with representatives of all the species that have ever lived. That said, I thought the Fantastic Voyage-esque trip into the DNA of a polar bear, where Tyson’s spaceship shrunk down to molecular size to show a mutation in progress, was done more for the cool factor than because it added anything to the science. The animation showing the selective advantage of white fur would have sufficed.

But I loved the “Halls of Extinction”, a sepulchral pyramid whose corridors open onto rooms that show past mass extinctions on Earth. I’d gladly watch a spinoff about this place, and since Tyson conspicuously called attention to one hallway that was unmarked, I presume the series will revisit it later. (I assume the unlabeled corridor was the human-caused mass extinction that’s currently in progress.) I was a little surprised by the unambiguous presentation of the Permian-Triassic extinction as caused by volcanism, something I thought was still a topic of active debate among scientists.

The other high point was Tyson’s trip to Saturn’s moon Titan: its icy shorelines, its methane and ethane rains, and a submarine voyage into the largest of the frigid moon’s hydrocarbon seas, the Kraken Mare (and how awesome is that name?), ending with a tantalizing speculation about whether strange life may lurk down in the depths, using chemistry unknown on Earth. This was a place where the improved special effects really shine, helping viewers visualize something they probably couldn’t picture otherwise.

Since this new series has gone out of its way to pay tribute to Carl Sagan, I’m surprised that the episode didn’t mention one of his most important scientific contributions: his discovery that the orange haze which shrouds Titan is made up of tholins, complex organic molecules that are produced in the upper atmosphere by lightning and ultraviolet radiation and fall to the surface like snow. Again, time constraints may have been a factor here, but I think that would have been a more fitting ending than the one they did go with, the animation of humanity’s evolution from the original Cosmos. It was a not-unwelcome bit of nostalgia, but it could have been trimmed for a tighter focus on the truly striking visuals and ideas this episode presented.
 
Possessive apostrophe

See also: English possessive

The apostrophe is used to indicate possession. This convention distinguishes possessive singular forms (Bernadette’s, flower’s, glass’s, one’s) from simple plural forms (Bernadettes, flowers, glasses, ones), and both of those from possessive plural forms (Bernadettes', flowers', glasses', ones'). For singulars, the modern possessive or genitive inflection is a survival from certain genitive inflections in Old English, and the apostrophe originally marked the loss of the old e (for example, lambes became lamb’s).

General principles for the possessive apostrophe[edit]
Summary of rules for most situationsPossessive personal pronouns, serving as either noun-equivalents or adjective-equivalents, do not use an apostrophe, even when they end in s. The complete list of those ending in the letter s or the corresponding sound /s/ or /z/ but not taking an apostrophe is ours, yours, his, hers, its, theirs, and whose.
Other pronouns, singular nouns not ending in s, and plural nouns not ending in s all take ’s in the possessive: e.g., someone’s, a cat’s toys, women’s.
Plural nouns already ending in s take only an apostrophe after the pre-existing s when the possessive is formed: e.g., three cats’ toys.
Basic rule (singular nouns)
For most singular nouns the ending 's is added; e.g., the cat’s whiskers.
If a singular noun ends with an s-sound (spelt with -s, -se, for example), practice varies as to whether to add 's or the apostrophe alone. A widely accepted practice is to follow whichever spoken form is judged better: the boss's shoes, Mrs Jones' hat (or Mrs Jones's hat, if that spoken form is preferred). In many cases, both spoken and written forms differ between writers. (See details below.)


Basic rule (plural nouns)
When the noun is a normal plural, with an added s, no extra s is added in the possessive; so the neighbours' garden (where there is more than one neighbour) is correct rather than the neighbours's garden.
If the plural is not one that is formed by adding s, an s is added for the possessive, after the apostrophe: children's hats, women's hairdresser, some people's eyes (but compare some peoples' recent emergence into nationhood, where peoples is meant as the plural of the singular people). These principles are universally accepted.
A few English nouns have plurals that are not spelled with a final s but nevertheless end in an /s/ or a /z/ sound: mice (plural of mouse; also in compounds like dormouse, titmouse), dice (when used as the plural of die), pence (a plural of penny, with compounds like sixpence that now tend to be taken as singulars). In the absence of specific exceptional treatment in style guides, the possessives of these plurals are formed by adding an apostrophe and an s in the standard way: seven titmice's tails were found, the dice's last fall was a seven, his few pence's value was not enough to buy bread. These would often be rephrased, where possible: the last fall of the dice was a seven.[note 1]
Basic rule (compound nouns)
Compound nouns have their singular possessives formed with an apostrophe and an added s, in accordance with the rules given above: the Attorney-General's husband; the Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports' prerogative; this Minister for Justice's intervention; her father-in-law's new wife.
In such examples, the plurals are formed with an s that does not occur at the end: e.g., attorneys-general. A problem therefore arises with the possessive plurals of these compounds. Sources that rule on the matter appear to favour the following forms, in which there is both an s added to form the plural, and a separate s added for the possessive: the attorneys-general's husbands; successive Ministers for Justice's interventions; their fathers-in-law's new wives.[6] Because these constructions stretch the resources of punctuation beyond comfort, in practice they are normally reworded: interventions by successive Ministers for Justice.[7][8]
Joint and separate possession
A distinction is made between joint possession (Jason and Sue’s e-mails: the e-mails of both Jason and Sue), and separate possession (Jason’s and Sue’s e-mails: both the e-mails of Jason and the e-mails of Sue). Style guides differ only in how much detail they provide concerning these.[9] Their consensus is that if possession is joint, only the last possessor has possessive inflection; in separate possession all the possessors have possessive inflection. If, however, any of the possessors is indicated by a pronoun, then for both joint and separate possession all of the possessors have possessive inflection (his and her e-mails; his, her, and Anthea’s e-mails; Jason’s and her e-mails; His and Sue’s e-mails; His and Sue’s wedding; His and Sue’s weddings).

Note that in cases of joint possession, the above rule does not distinguish between a situation in which only one or more jointly possessed items perform a grammatical role and a situation in which both one or more such items and a non-possessing entity independently perform that role. Although verb number suffices in some cases ("Jason and Sue’s dog has porphyria.") and context suffices in others ("Jason and Sue’s e-mails rarely exceed 200 characters in length."), number and grammatical position often prevent a resolution of ambiguity:
Where multiple items are possessed and context is not dispositive[clarification needed], a rule forbidding distribution of the possessive merely shifts ambiguity: suppose that Jason and Sue had one or more children who died in a car crash and that none of Jason's children by anyone other than Sue were killed. Under a rule forbidding distribution of the joint possessive, writing "Jason and Sue’s children died in the crash" (rather than "Jason’s and Sue’s children") eliminates the implication that Jason lost children of whom Sue was not the mother, but it introduces ambiguity as to whether Jason himself was killed.
Moreover, if only one item is possessed, the rule against distribution of the joint possessive introduces ambiguity (unless the context happens to resolve it): when read in light of a rule requiring distribution, the sentence "Jason and Sue’s dog died after being hit by a bus" makes clear[really?] that the dog belonged to Sue alone and that Jason survived or was not involved, whereas a rule prohibiting distribution forces ambiguity as to both whether Jason (co-)owned the dog and whether he was killed.
With other punctuation; compounds with pronouns
If the word or compound includes, or even ends with, a punctuation mark, an apostrophe and an s are still added in the usual way: "Westward Ho!’s railway station"; "Awaye!’s Paulette Whitten recorded Bob Wilson’s story";[10] Washington, D.C.'s museums,[11] assuming that the prevailing style requires full stops in D.C.
If the word or compound already includes a possessive apostrophe, a double possessive results: Tom’s sisters’ careers; the head of marketing’s husband’s preference; the master of foxhounds’ best dog’s death. Many style guides, while allowing that these constructions are possible, advise rephrasing: the head of marketing’s husband prefers that .... If an original apostrophe, or apostrophe with s, occurs at the end, it is left by itself to do double duty: Our employees are better paid than McDonald’s employees; Standard & Poor’s indices are widely used: the fixed forms of McDonald's and Standard & Poor's already include possessive apostrophes. For similar cases involving geographical names, see below.
Similarly, the possessives of all phrases whose wording is fixed are formed in the same way: "Us and Them"’s inclusion on the album The Dark Side of the Moon
You Am I’s latest CD
The 69'ers’ drummer, Tom Callaghan (only the second apostrophe is possessive)
His 'n' Hers’ first track is called "Joyriders".[12]
Was She's success greater, or King Solomon’s Mines's?[13]

For complications with foreign phrases and titles, see below.Time, money, and similar
An apostrophe is used in time and money references, among others, in constructions such as one hour’s respite, two weeks’ holiday (optional apostrophe), a dollar’s worth, five pounds’ worth (optional apostrophe), one mile’s drive from here. This is like an ordinary possessive use. For example, one hour’s respite means a respite of one hour (exactly as the cat’s whiskers means the whiskers of the cat). Exceptions are accounted for in the same way: three months pregnant (in modern usage, one says neither pregnant of three months, nor one month(’)s pregnant).
Possessive pronouns and adjectives
No apostrophe is used in the following possessive pronouns and adjectives: yours, his, hers, ours, its, theirs, and whose.

The possessive of it was originally it’s, and many people continue to write it this way, though the apostrophe was dropped in the early 1800s and authorities are now unanimous that it’s can be only a contraction of it is or it has.[14][15] For example, U.S. President Thomas Jefferson used it’s as a possessive in his instructions dated 20 June 1803 to Lewis for his preparations for his great expedition.[16]

All other possessive pronouns ending in s do take an apostrophe: one’s; everyone’s; somebody’s, nobody else’s, etc. With plural forms, the apostrophe follows the s, as with nouns: the others’ husbands (but compare They all looked at each other’s husbands, in which both each and other are singular).
Importance for disambiguation
Each of these four phrases (listed in Steven Pinker’s The Language Instinct) has a distinct meaning:
My sister’s friend’s investments (the investments belonging to a friend of my sister)
My sister’s friends’ investments (the investments belonging to several friends of my sister)
My sisters’ friend’s investments (the investments belonging to a friend of several of my sisters)
My sisters’ friends’ investments (the investments belonging to several friends of several of my sisters)

Kingsley Amis, on being challenged to produce a sentence whose meaning depended on a possessive apostrophe, came up with:
Those things over there are my husband’s. (Those things over there belong to my husband.)
Those things over there are my husbands’. (Those things over there belong to several husbands of mine.)
Those things over there are my husbands. (I'm married to those men over there.)[17]

Singular nouns ending with an “s” or “z” sound[edit]

This subsection deals with singular nouns pronounced with a sibilant sound at the end: /s/ or /z/. The spelling of these ends with -s, -se, -z, -ze, -ce, -x, or -xe.

Many respected authorities recommend that practically all singular nouns, including those ending with a sibilant sound, have possessive forms with an extra s after the apostrophe so that the spelling reflects the underlying pronunciation. Examples include Oxford University Press, the Modern Language Association, the BBC and The Economist.[18] Such authorities demand possessive singulars like these: Senator Jones's umbrella; Tony Adams's friend. Rules that modify or extend the standard principle have included the following:
If the singular possessive is difficult or awkward to pronounce with an added sibilant, do not add an extra s; these exceptions are supported by The Guardian,[19] Yahoo! Style Guide,[20] The American Heritage Book of English Usage.[21] Such sources permit possessive singulars like these: Socrates' later suggestion; or Achilles' heel if that is how the pronunciation is intended.
Classical, biblical, and similar names ending in a sibilant, especially if they are polysyllabic, do not take an added s in the possessive; among sources giving exceptions of this kind are The Times[22] and The Elements of Style, which make general stipulations, and Vanderbilt University,[23] which mentions only Moses and Jesus. As a particular case, Jesus' is very commonly written instead of Jesus's – even by people who would otherwise add 's in, for example, James's or Chris's. Jesus' is referred to as "an accepted liturgical archaism" in Hart's Rules.

However, some contemporary writers still follow the older practice of omitting the extra s in all cases ending with a sibilant, but usually not when written -x or -xe.[24] Some contemporary authorities such as the Associated Press Stylebook[25] recommend or allow the practice of omitting the extra "s" in all words ending with an "s", but not in words ending with other sibilants ("z" and "x").[26] The 15th edition of The Chicago Manual of Style recommended the traditional practice, which included providing for several exceptions to accommodate spoken usage such as the omission of the extra s after a polysyllabic word ending in a sibilant, but the 16th edition no longer recommends omitting the extra "s".[27]

Similar examples of notable names ending in an s that are often given a possessive apostrophe with no additional s include Dickens and Williams. There is often a policy of leaving off the additional s on any such name, but this can prove problematic when specific names are contradictory (for example, St James’ Park in Newcastle [the football ground] and the area of St. James's Park in London). For more details on practice with geographic names, see the relevant section below.

Some writers like to reflect standard spoken practice in cases like these with sake: for convenience’ sake, for goodness’ sake, for appearance’ sake, for compromise’ sake, etc. This punctuation is preferred in major style guides. Others prefer to add 's: for convenience's sake.[28] Still others prefer to omit the apostrophe when there is an s sound before sake: for morality's sake, but for convenience sake.[29]

The Supreme Court of the United States is split on whether a possessive singular noun that ends with s should always have an additional s after the apostrophe, sometimes have an additional s after the apostrophe (for instance, based on whether the final sound of the original word is pronounced /s/ or /z/), or never have an additional s after the apostrophe. The informal majority view (5–4, based on past writings of the justices) has favoured the additional s, but a strong minority disagrees.[30]
 
The difference is, and what is disconcerting to many fans, is that this is a deliberate look back at what came before instead of a way to make new sounds. So while in the 80's, those sounds sounded fresh, in the 2000s, they sound stale.


When you write "what is disconcerting to many fans", what is more accurate is not "many fans" but "few hardcore" fans. The sales of ATYCLB & HTDAAB albums, the radio success of some if their songs, the awards they received and the unreal success of this tours would indicate that this "stale sound" as you call it is what people, many people, prefer. Had U2 continued after POP to deviate from their signature sound and created 2/3 "Zooropa"/ "Passengers" style albums, we would be talking about how cool it was to see U2 open up for RadioHead last year vs U2 360 being the most successful tour in history.

New sound does not equal good song
Experimental does not equal good song
As I stated in my OP, if I want to hear something new/different, I'll listen to a new/different artist. It's the same reason I hate the Wanderer, if I want to here Johnny Cash sing....I'll listen to a Johnny Cash album...if I'm spending $20 on a CD(think 1993) Bono better be F'ing singing!
 
When you write "what is disconcerting to many fans", what is more accurate is not "many fans" but "few hardcore" fans. The sales of ATYCLB & HTDAAB albums, the radio success of some if their songs, the awards they received and the unreal success of this tours would indicate that this "stale sound" as you call it is what people, many people, prefer. Had U2 continued after POP to deviate from their signature sound and created 2/3 "Zooropa"/ "Passengers" style albums, we would be talking about how cool it was to see U2 open up for RadioHead last year vs U2 360 being the most successful tour in history.

New sound does not equal good song
Experimental does not equal good song
As I stated in my OP, if I want to hear something new/different, I'll listen to a new/different artist. It's the same reason I hate the Wanderer, if I want to here Johnny Cash sing....I'll listen to a Johnny Cash album...if I'm spending $20 on a CD(think 1993) Bono better be F'ing singing!

I see you've decided to willfully miss my point. Great.

Also, "many" is appropriate, as there are *many* posters even on this very site that find the 2000's U2 slightly disappointing.
 
I see you've decided to willfully miss my point. Great.



Also, "many" is appropriate, as there are *many* posters even on this very site that find the 2000's U2 slightly disappointing.


When referring to posters on a fan site of hundreds/ a thousand people vs "fans in general" that number in the millions, you can't use the fan site to make a generalization. If that were the case, you could say that "many" fans prefer Passengers over ATYCLB, which might be true in a fan forum but not to fans in general.
 
I see you've decided to willfully miss my point. Great.

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No, I didn't miss your point, I just didn't feel like addressing that portion of your post. I don't feel that they are missing a drive or "hunger", I think they still have it. I actually am not disappointed by Invisible and find to be a better song than anything in Zooropa....and I would imagine that you think Zooropa was U2 "struggling" to be a better band and therefore produced real "U2" material. Please understand, I'm not discounting your opinion, I just don't agree with it.
 
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