Zack, prisoner at "ex-gay" camp, to come home this weekend

[Irvine511]

Those kids will benefit greatly from having you around.

thank you very much.

i would have been so much happier as a teen i'd had someone to talk to, but especially to have something of a role model. not a perfect person, or an example, but simply someone who had been through it and was happy, healthy, and sane. we can debate the sanity part, but i am happy and healthy.

 

[LoveTown]

Wow. correcting my grammar. You really showed me. Its a web forum.

What i said was a true statement. You think the only kids who get bullied are the gays ones. Kids who are fat or dont have the "in" look get beat up and harassed too.

Also, gays are more accepted now than ever. I'm not saying everyone accepts them cause your article shows this. However, people have become very tolerant of this choice of lifestyle.


I love the fact that you are judging me and that could have very well been the first one of my posts you have ever read.

All kinds of kids get pushed around yes. But, as a fat kid myself...I don't ever recall being told I was going to burn in Hell for being fat....and I never feared that my family would disown me....and....I could and did diet....so it was something I could change..... so I don't see your point here. Sorry.

Furthermore, I did have a cousin that killed himself, ONLY because he was sad and depressed that he was gay, not "normal" and that his parents would never accept him. So please. don't trivialize it ok?

 

[Irvine511]

All kinds of kids get pushed around yes. But, as a fat kid myself...I don't ever recall being told I was going to burn in Hell for being fat....and I never feared that my family would disown me....and....I could and did diet....so it was something I could change..... so I don't see your point here. Sorry.

Furthermore, I did have a cousin that killed himself, ONLY because he was sad and depressed that he was gay, not "normal" and that his parents would never accept him. So please. don't trivialize it ok?

 

[dazzlingamy]

I think you are all over reaching here.

Not every gay kid has thought of suicide, not everyone has been teased through out school, and sometimes maybe a gay person who commits suicide thnks more about OTHER problems in his life then being gay, because maybe being gay isn't a problem to him...

i just think you need to realise that what The Brush is saying is that, today although there are still many societies that disown gay ppl, there is a lot more support, acceptance and understanding for gay people, who could if they're family disowns them could turn too for support and not feel so alone as people did not that long ago.

 

[BVS]

there is a lot more support, acceptance and understanding for gay people, who could if they're family disowns them could turn too for support and not feel so alone as people did not that long ago.

This depends on where you live, the majority of the world is still very homophobic in their dealings with homosexuals in their society.

 

[Irvine511]

I think you are all over reaching here.

Not every gay kid has thought of suicide, not everyone has been teased through out school, and sometimes maybe a gay person who commits suicide thnks more about OTHER problems in his life then being gay, because maybe being gay isn't a problem to him...

i just think you need to realise that what The Brush is saying is that, today although there are still many societies that disown gay ppl, there is a lot more support, acceptance and understanding for gay people, who could if they're family disowns them could turn too for support and not feel so alone as people did not that long ago.

well i was a gay kid who never thought of suicide -- though i did go through an "i wish i were dead" period ... which is distinct from "i am going to kill myself" -- and while people who commit suicide are almost by definition irrational, i think it's a mistake to think that being gay isn't the #1 reason why a gay kid would kill himself, especially when you realize that the suicide rate for gay kids is much, much higher than for their straight peers.

yes, it is certainly better to be gay now than at any other time in history, all this silly "ex-gay" nonsense and political demonization aside. part of this increased visibility has inspired a backlash, but the fact remains that more gay people can now be out, safely and proudly, than ever before. however, it is still very, very hard, *especially* when you're from a member of a traditionally disadvantaged social group.

 

[Irvine511]

This depends on where you live, the majority of the world is still very homophobic in their dealings with homosexuals in their society.

Two gay Iranian teenagers -- one 18, the other believed to be 16 or 17, were executed this week for the "crime" of homosexuality, the Iranian Student News Agency (ISNA) reported on July 19. (The ISNA report is in Farsi, and was translated into English by the British gay rights group OutRage!, which released its report today--ISNA also provided the terrifying photos of the teens' last moments. The two youths -- identified only by their initials as M.A. and A.M., were hanged on July 19 in Edalat (Justice) Square in the city of Mashhad in north-eastern Iran, on the orders of Court No. 19. The hanging of the teens was also reported by the National Council of Resistance of Iran.

And the website Iran Focus not only confirms the story but provides more details, reporting that "Members of Iran's parliament from the north-eastern city of Mashad, where a minor and an 18-year-old man were publicly hanged yesterday, vented their anger on Wednesday on foreign and domestic news outlets for reporting the ages of hanged prisoners...Ultra-conservative deputy Ali Asgari said that the two deserved to be hanged in public, adding, 'Whatever sentence is decreed by an Islamic penal system must be approved, unless proven otherwise.' Asgari complained of foreign and domestic reporting that the two were mere boys. 'Instead of paying tribute to the action of the judiciary, the media are mentioning the age of the hanged criminals and creating a commotion that harms the interests of the state,' the member of the Majlis Legal Affairs Committee said. 'Even if certain websites made a reference to their age, journalists should not pursue this. These individuals were corrupt. Their sentence was carried out with the approval of the judiciary and it served them right.' "

Consensual gay sex in any form is punishable by death in the Islamic Republic of Iran. According to the website Age of Consent, which monitors such laws around the world, in Iran "Homosexuality is illegal, those charged with love-making are given a choice of four deathstyles: being hanged, stoned, halved by a sword, or dropped from the highest perch. According to Article 152, if two men not related by blood are discovered naked under one cover without good reason, both will be punished at a judge's discretion. Gay teens (Article 144) are also punished at a judge's discretion. Rubbing one's penis between the thighs without penetration (tafheed) shall be punished by 100 lashes for each offender. This act, known to the English-speaking world as 'frottage,' is punishable by death if the 'offender' is a non-Muslim. If frottage is thrice repeated and penalty-lashes have failed to stop such repetitions, upon the fourth 'offense' both men will be put to death. According to Article 156, a person who repents and confesses his gay behavior prior to his identification by four witnesses, may be pardoned. Even kissing 'with lust' (Article 155) is forbidden. This bizarre law works to eliminate old Persian male-bonding customs, including common kissing and holding hands in public." And Outrage, in its release about the gay teens' execution, noted that, "according to Iranian human rights campaigners, over 4000 lesbians and gay men have been executed since the Ayatollahs seized power in 1979. Last August, a 16-year-old girl , [Atefeh Rajabi] was hanged [in the Caspian port of Neka] for 'acts incompatible with chastity,' [i.e., sex before marriage]."

In the case of the two teens hanged in Mashhad, "They admitted having gay sex (probably under torture) but claimed in their defense that most young boys had sex with each other and tdhat they were not aware that homosexuality was punishable by death," according to the ISNA report as translated by OutRage. "Prior to their execution, the gay teenagers were held in prison for 14 months and severely beaten with 228 lashes. The length of their detention suggests that they committed the so-called offenses more than a year earlier, when they were possibly around the age of 16."

"Ruhollah Rezazadeh, the lawyer of the younger of the two boys, had appealed that he was too young to be executed and that the court should take into account his tender age (believed to be 16 or 17). But the Supreme Court in Tehran Ordered him to be hanged." The Iranian authorities are putting out a cover story that the two boys had participated in the rape of a 12-year-old, but OutRage affirms from its sources that this accusation is a smokescreen for inhuman conduct and is without foundation. However, the Murdoch press (e.g., the Times of London) is putting about the Iranian government's story as a virtual statement of fact. But there is no mention of this Iranian government accusation in the original ISNA report, otherwise quite detailed.-- which rather suggests it's a recent invention.


homepage: http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

...

Again I say, I just don't get it. I don't understand how some people can be so heartless, so cruel, so unaccepting. Those poor boys...may they rest in peace. The jerks who executed them should be punished or something, that's just not right, there's just no excuse for that.

Also, I'll second Irvine and send a to you as well, LoveTown. I'm so sorry to hear that . May he rest in peace as well.

 

[TheBrush]

All kinds of kids get pushed around yes. But, as a fat kid myself...I don't ever recall being told I was going to burn in Hell for being fat....and I never feared that my family would disown me....and....I could and did diet....so it was something I could change..... so I don't see your point here. Sorry.

Furthermore, I did have a cousin that killed himself, ONLY because he was sad and depressed that he was gay, not "normal" and that his parents would never accept him. So please. don't trivialize it ok?

Im sorry for your loss. If you dont see my point read it from the beginning and read the replies of the six people who knew what I was saying.

I was implying that there are other reasons for committing suicide and other reasons kids get bullied. But at the end of the day it all comes down to fitting in. Many kids often feel as if they dont fit in. This can be from being gay, fat, studious, etc..

Its getting scary that I have to check this thread almost daily to see If I have to defend myself. Especially when there were things being said on this thread that were insane.

Again reread my posts before bashing me.....Ive done nothing wrong.

Sanve for the occassional mispelled word right buddy

 

[TheBrush]

Two gay Iranian teenagers -- one 18, the other believed to be 16 or 17, were executed this week for the "crime" of homosexuality, the Iranian Student News Agency (ISNA) reported on July 19. (The ISNA report is in Farsi, and was translated into English by the British gay rights group OutRage!, which released its report today--ISNA also provided the terrifying photos of the teens' last moments. The two youths -- identified only by their initials as M.A. and A.M., were hanged on July 19 in Edalat (Justice) Square in the city of Mashhad in north-eastern Iran, on the orders of Court No. 19. The hanging of the teens was also reported by the National Council of Resistance of Iran.

And the website Iran Focus not only confirms the story but provides more details, reporting that "Members of Iran's parliament from the north-eastern city of Mashad, where a minor and an 18-year-old man were publicly hanged yesterday, vented their anger on Wednesday on foreign and domestic news outlets for reporting the ages of hanged prisoners...Ultra-conservative deputy Ali Asgari said that the two deserved to be hanged in public, adding, 'Whatever sentence is decreed by an Islamic penal system must be approved, unless proven otherwise.' Asgari complained of foreign and domestic reporting that the two were mere boys. 'Instead of paying tribute to the action of the judiciary, the media are mentioning the age of the hanged criminals and creating a commotion that harms the interests of the state,' the member of the Majlis Legal Affairs Committee said. 'Even if certain websites made a reference to their age, journalists should not pursue this. These individuals were corrupt. Their sentence was carried out with the approval of the judiciary and it served them right.' "

Consensual gay sex in any form is punishable by death in the Islamic Republic of Iran. According to the website Age of Consent, which monitors such laws around the world, in Iran "Homosexuality is illegal, those charged with love-making are given a choice of four deathstyles: being hanged, stoned, halved by a sword, or dropped from the highest perch. According to Article 152, if two men not related by blood are discovered naked under one cover without good reason, both will be punished at a judge's discretion. Gay teens (Article 144) are also punished at a judge's discretion. Rubbing one's penis between the thighs without penetration (tafheed) shall be punished by 100 lashes for each offender. This act, known to the English-speaking world as 'frottage,' is punishable by death if the 'offender' is a non-Muslim. If frottage is thrice repeated and penalty-lashes have failed to stop such repetitions, upon the fourth 'offense' both men will be put to death. According to Article 156, a person who repents and confesses his gay behavior prior to his identification by four witnesses, may be pardoned. Even kissing 'with lust' (Article 155) is forbidden. This bizarre law works to eliminate old Persian male-bonding customs, including common kissing and holding hands in public." And Outrage, in its release about the gay teens' execution, noted that, "according to Iranian human rights campaigners, over 4000 lesbians and gay men have been executed since the Ayatollahs seized power in 1979. Last August, a 16-year-old girl , [Atefeh Rajabi] was hanged [in the Caspian port of Neka] for 'acts incompatible with chastity,' [i.e., sex before marriage]."

In the case of the two teens hanged in Mashhad, "They admitted having gay sex (probably under torture) but claimed in their defense that most young boys had sex with each other and tdhat they were not aware that homosexuality was punishable by death," according to the ISNA report as translated by OutRage. "Prior to their execution, the gay teenagers were held in prison for 14 months and severely beaten with 228 lashes. The length of their detention suggests that they committed the so-called offenses more than a year earlier, when they were possibly around the age of 16."

"Ruhollah Rezazadeh, the lawyer of the younger of the two boys, had appealed that he was too young to be executed and that the court should take into account his tender age (believed to be 16 or 17). But the Supreme Court in Tehran Ordered him to be hanged." The Iranian authorities are putting out a cover story that the two boys had participated in the rape of a 12-year-old, but OutRage affirms from its sources that this accusation is a smokescreen for inhuman conduct and is without foundation. However, the Murdoch press (e.g., the Times of London) is putting about the Iranian government's story as a virtual statement of fact. But there is no mention of this Iranian government accusation in the original ISNA report, otherwise quite detailed.-- which rather suggests it's a recent invention.


homepage: http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html

I can't believe things like this happen. It makes me ill that some people could be so heartless.
I can't believe that people would stand by and watch children being executed either.

Wow. Im not saying my that my country has become a utopia but Im glad I at least have a "questionable amount of freedom" here

 

[LoveTown]

s to Irvine511 and Moonlit_Angel

TheBrush I'm not trying to bash you in any way shape or form because quite frankly I don't believe in tearing people down. I'm simply saying that gay teens have a MUCH higher rate of suicide than other kids. Yes, all kids want to fit in. Most of the time kids can change whatever it is they don't particularly like about themselves if they REALLY hate it. However, a gay kid cannot change who they are. It would be like saying "I think I will grow an extra arm today" or "I think I will change my skin color". It's just part of how they were born.

Yes I do agree that people in America are on the whole becoming more accepting of homosexuals today. However, it is still ok to laugh at the funny fem guy, or the butch acting woman. It's also still acceptable to say words like "fag" or "faggot" or "dyke" or "lezbo" or "queer". I challenge you to go out on the street and say "******" and laugh about it. You'd be beaten to a bloodly pulp, as anybody who uses that term should be.

Also, in MANY MANY more rural and conservative places in America there is absolutely no tolerance at all for homosexuality. People are harrassed, forced to hide their sexuality, beaten and tormented on a daily basis in many areas of this country even if they are only suspected of being homosexual.

So yes, I do believe that many homosexual people DO get so depressed over these things that it is the sole reason they contemplate suicide or even attempt it.

Again, I wasn't trying to bash you. I'm sorry if you took it that way. I'm just asking you to take a moment and put yourself in somebody else's shoes. The walk may be much more difficult and lonely than you thought.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

They did a story on this on GMA this morning

'Ex-Gay' Camps, Therapy Programs Attract Controversy

Do Christian-Based Reparative Therapy Programs Help or Hurt Those Troubled by Their Sexuality?

By ROSE PALAZZOLO

Jul. 28, 2005 - Melissa Fryrear says she struggled with her homosexuality and lived a decade as a lesbian before the "arduous and extremely difficult journey out" of it.

"I started to come to the end of my proverbial rope," she said. "Believe me, I am the most surprised about the transformation of my life."

Now, she says, jokingly, she is just looking for a tall, good-looking man who looks good in a kilt. She's taking marriage requests, in fact.

" 'Braveheart' changed my life," she said jokingly. Fryrear currently is the Gender Issues Analyst at Focus on the Family, a Christian-based ministry, in Colorado Springs, Colo.

The topic of "reparative therapy," or so-called ex-gay camps, has come back to the national spotlight after a teen blogger named Zach wrote in his online diary about being sent by his parents to Refuge, a youth program of Love in Action International. The group, based in Memphis, Tenn., runs a religiously based program intended to change the sexual orientation of gay men and women.

Founded in California in 1973, Love in Action moved to Memphis 11 years ago. It is one of 120 programs nationwide listed by Exodus International, which bills itself as the largest information and referral network for the ''ex-gay'' movement.

Zach is due to leave the camp on Friday. In an interview on the Christian Broadcasting Network, Zach's father, Joe Stark said he "felt good about Zach coming here."

"Until he turns 18 and he's an adult in the state of Tennessee, I'm responsible for him, and I'm going to see to it that he has all options available to him," Stark said on the program.

There are mixed opinions about the therapies and whether they are effective.

Fryrear says the years in therapy have made her life "fuller and happier," though she describes it as the "most difficult thing" she believes she will ever have to go through.

"For me it seemed as if this has been a journey of radical transformation," Fryrear said. "I used to believe that I was born gay. Now I know that you are not born gay. I used to have contempt that I was a woman. I used to hate and despise men and now I respect and admire and am attracted to men."

Critics of these programs say they open a person to lifelong problems of guilt, shame and even suicide.

Peterson Toscano, who was at the Love in Action adult program between 1996 and 1998, said he felt suicidal during his attempt at transformation from a gay man to a heterosexual man.

"At one point, I was standing at the subway platform and I thought 'I need to leap because I am a horrible person,'" said Toscano who lives now as an openly gay man, but spent 17 years in different reparative therapy programs. He performs a one-man play based on his experiences called "Doin' Time in the Homonono Halfway House."

On its Web site, Love in Action says its growth has "exceeded 10 percent each year for the past four consecutive years."

On Zach's blog, he wrote: "My mother, father, and I had a very long 'talk' … where they let me know I am to apply for a fundamentalist Christian program for gays … I'm a big screwup to them, who isn't on the path God wants me to be on. So I'm sitting here in tears."

The Rev. John Smid, executive director of Love in Action, believes people have a choice when it comes to their sexuality. He says he is "ex-gay."

The American Psychological Association says there are a number of theories about the origins of a person's sexual orientation, but that most scientists agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors. The APA says homosexuality is not a choice and that in most people, sexual orientation is shaped at an early age.

"A lot of harm is done by these programs," Dr. Jack Drescher of the American Psychological Association told Good Morning America. "It creates shame and guilt feelings that can lead to suicidal behavior."

Love in Action was the center of an investigation by the Tennessee Department of Mental Health for touting its program as therapy but not servicing the facility with licensed mental health professionals. Since then Love in Action has changed the wording on their Web site. Prior to this, the program was cleared of abuse allegations by the Tennessee Department of Children Services.

Whether the programs help or harm, one thing is for sure: The blogosphere will be waiting to see if Zach returns to cyberspace to discuss his experience at the camp.

 

[Irvine511]

i was watching a piece on this subject last night on Paula Zahn. they interviewed a boy (a kind of cute boy) named Ben Marshall. his interview broke my heart, especially since he was cautiously supportive of his experience at "ex-gay" camp.

some excerpts from the interview:

FEYERICK: Three months later, the boy who had never dated anyone was with his first serious relationship with a high school senior. It was short. It was painful and Ben wondered whether it was right.

B. MARSHALL: And that became my identity, was just Ben, the homosexual. I liked the attention that I got from that.

FEYERICK: His parents, Sharon and Larry, didn't like it at all.

L. MARSHALL: I had had enough as a parent, and I felt that, with my beliefs and with my rights, that this is the way it's going to be.

FEYERICK: Sharon packed up the family camper, leaving Pensacola, Florida, driving Ben eight hours to Tennessee.

SHARON MARSHALL, MOTHER OF BEN: And I said, OK, Lord, we're going to go to Memphis.

FEYERICK: In Memphis, they met program director Reverend Smid. Married 16 years, he renounced his own homosexuality two decades ago after attending a similar program. At Refuge, there is no touching, no flashy clothes. Teens and young adults study scripture, attend group therapy, pray and keep journals, what they call moral inventories.

SMID: When they express things that have gone on internally, and they find other people have shared those thoughts and feelings, it actually releases the shame.

FEYERICK: Yet others say the opposite is true.

DR. JACK DRESCHER, AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATION: It increases their feeling of shame. It increases their feeling of failure. it makes them feel worse about themselves when they're done.

FEYERICK: Dr. Jack Drescher has written a book on homosexuality and psychoanalysis. He says programs like Love in Action are misguided.

DRESCHER: It offers the possibility that somehow homosexuality is a result of not being religious enough, not having enough faith, and if you just increase your faith, then that should help the homosexuality go away, which would be nice, I suppose, if that were true.


[...]



FEYERICK: Yet, not only did Ben survive the initial two-week program. He stayed eight months.

B. MARSHALL: There is that lust that's still there. It's subsiding. I don't know that it will ever go away altogether. But it's not nearly as strong as it used to be. I don't go to the same places in my head that I used to.

FEYERICK: Asked if he's gay?

B. MARSHALL: I have trouble with the word gay, period, because that is a label, and I don't necessarily think anyone is clearly heterosexual or homosexual.

FEYERICK: Before Love in Action, Ben planned to go to New York to study journalism. Now he's part of a church group and plans to study psychology in Memphis, with an eye towards theology and a seminary. As for a wife and children:

B. MARSHALL: I think it's possible. I think I'm attracted to women enough right now that it can eventually develop into a relationship. I know I'm capable of that. If it don't get that, that's fine. Celibacy is an option for me right now.




i have two thoughts:

1. poor girl that marries Ben -- must make you feel really good to know that your husband has to try really hard to find you sexually attractive.

2. poor Ben. evidently, it's better to be sexless, loveless, and celibate than to be gay.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I don't see how in any way this can help these kids, perhaps they're just saying and doing what others want them to say and do. Ultimately I think they just end up confused and hurt.

Christian "love in action" for me is loving and accepting people for who they are and teaching them to do the same for themselves.

 

[LoveTown]

I don't see how in any way this can help these kids, perhaps they're just saying and doing what others want them to say and do. Ultimately I think they just end up confused and hurt.

Christian "love in action" for me is loving and accepting people for who they are and teaching them to do the same for themselves.

Beautifully put! Thank you! That is EXACTLY what I think Christianity SHOULD be about!!

 

[80sU2isBest]

i have two thoughts:

1. poor girl that marries Ben -- must make you feel really good to know that your husband has to try really hard to find you sexually attractive.

2. poor Ben. evidently, it's better to be sexless, loveless, and celibate than to be gay.

Irvine, what about Ben's own words:

"B. MARSHALL: I think it's possible. I think I'm attracted to women enough right now that it can eventually develop into a relationship. I know I'm capable of that. If it don't get that, that's fine. Celibacy is an option for me right now."

Ben's own words shows that Thought 1 is assumption on your part. Ben says he finds women attractive now. He didn't say anything about having to "try really hard" to find women attractive.

Your second thought is based purely on your own desires and priorities, and yet you say "poor Ben". From the entire section on Ben, it seems to me that Ben is content now, and might even want a relationship with a woman. What makes you think that he'll never have that? And if he doesn't, his quote sure makes it seem that he's quite okay with being celibate, and it is his choice to be so. Seems to me that you want him to remain "gay", when he shows no indication in this article of wanting that. If you met the guy and you could see some things that are not evident from this article, that would be different. But all we have to go by at this point are his words in this article. Why do you find it acceptable to make the judgment that homosexuality is what's best for him, but you find it unacceptable if people make the judgment that homosexulaity is not what's best for him?

 

[melon]

Ben is young. What if he decides that what's best for him is to have a long-term relationship with another man? He may be under a lot of pressure right now to try to be straight or be celibate, but there's a lot of teenagers in religious households who do the same things without going to a brainwashing camp. Then when they get older, they realize that they are better off being true to themselves, rather than trying to conform to what other people want him to be.

Or down the line, you become Governor of New Jersey and have to hurt your wife by openly declaring that you're gay and that you've been having affairs with other men. Is that fair to either one of them?

FYI, these "camps" admit to only a 33% success rate, at most.

Melon

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine, what about Ben's own words:

"B. MARSHALL: I think it's possible. I think I'm attracted to women enough right now that it can eventually develop into a relationship. I know I'm capable of that. If it don't get that, that's fine. Celibacy is an option for me right now."

Ben's own words shows that Thought 1 is assumption on your part. Ben says he finds women attractive now. He didn't say anything about having to "try really hard" to find women attractive.

Your second thought is based purely on your own desires and priorities, and yet you say "poor Ben". From the entire section on Ben, it seems to me that Ben is content now, and might even want a relationship with a woman. What makes you think that he'll never have that? And if he doesn't, his quote sure makes it seem that he's quite okay with being celibate, and it is his choice to be so. Seems to me that you want him to remain "gay", when he shows no indication in this article of wanting that. If you met the guy and you could see some things that are not evident from this article, that would be different. But all we have to go by at this point are his words in this article. Why do you find it acceptable to make the judgment that homosexuality is what's best for him, but you find it unacceptable if people make the judgment that homosexulaity is not what's best for him?

um, yes 80s, i was offering my thoughts/opinions.

Ben said that he finds women attractive ENOUGH and that he's CAPABLE of having a heterosexual relationship.

any girls out there want to jump into this boy's arms?

i also think you're underestimating Ben's choice. Ben is young and wants to please his parents, and they would clearly prefer celibacy to being an "active" gay person (Ben's sexual orientation isn't going anywhere no mater how he might be able to smother it).

i love the line "...that homosexuality is not what's best for him." it shows how thoroughly you don't understand sexual orientation. Ben can't change his homosexuality no more than i can be left-handed. sure, i can train myself to write (not so well) with my left hand, but i'll never be authentically left-handed. you don't select homosexuality as if it were a car. do you think, 80s, that through prayer and self-discipline you can train yourself to be sexually attracted to other men?

Ben has a few choices: he can either work hard at being in a heterosexual relationship (probably not a good option, especially for his wife), he can be celibate (which is fine if that's what he wants ... but i would argue that viewing life as a celibacy vs gay choice is precisely the wrong reason to be celibate), or he can come out and be who he is and work with others.

let's say he chooses option 1. what happens?

Ben suppresses his sexual urges that are as natural to anyone as the human drives to eat or breathe. he gets married and has couple of kids. still, something is gnawing at him deep down inside, something that he has been denied and will never get with the life that has been forced upon him. out of shame for what he has been told is not "normal" or "Christian," he gets on the Internet or sneaks off to a gay bathhouse and begins having furtive, anonymous sex. because he has been told repeatedly that he is not worthy of the kind of stable relationship that he desires, he engages in self-destructive behavior, possibly drugs and unprotected sex. he catches HIV and brings it home to his wife. suddenly, two lives are destroyed. worse, maybe the shame that has been beaten into him drives him to suicide.

let's say he chooses option 3. or, better, Ben has parents who are more concerned with the safety and welfare of their child than about their "beliefs."

instead, Ben grows up in a loving, accepting family where he is taught that he can be who he is and aspire to healthier relationships with men, based on self-respect, he starts out several steps ahead, with the tools he needs to act responsibly to himself and others.

 

[Irvine511]

FYI, these "camps" admit to only a 33% success rate, at most.

and they equate "success" as someone who "comes out of a homosexual lifestyle" -- which is to say they stop dating, loving, and having sex with members of their own gender.

it does NOT mean that they have "turned" straight.

i imagine that percentage would be in the single digits, at it's best and most inflated.

for more info:

http://www.waynebesen.com/

 

[80sU2isBest]

Ben is young. What if he decides that what's best for him is to have a long-term relationship with another man? He may be under a lot of pressure right now to try to be straight or be celibate, but there's a lot of teenagers in religious households who do the same things without going to a brainwashing camp. Then when they get older, they realize that they are better off being true to themselves, rather than trying to conform to what other people want him to be.

Or down the line, you become Governor of New Jersey and have to hurt your wife by openly declaring that you're gay and that you've been having affairs with other men. Is that fair to either one of them?

FYI, these "camps" admit to only a 33% success rate, at most.

Melon

Melon, since we don't know Ben, the only thing we go on is what he says in this article. The "ifs" may happen, but we can't assume it, because based on this article, Ben appears to be content now.

However, my stance on these kinds of camps is this:

They will not work on people who do not want to be there. I think that if a kid wants to go the camp, that's fine. But to force him will do no good, and he might just "play straight" just to get out of the camp.

 

[Irvine511]

They will not work on people who do not want to be there. I think that if a kid wants to go the camp, that's fine. But to force him will do no good, and he might just "play straight" just to get out of the camp.

i think that's fair.

however, i would wonder why a kid would want to be at a camp in the first place -- could it be because he's been told, at home at school and at church, that homosexuality is "wrong"? it's "immoral"?

wouldn't we all be a lot healthier if we were to understand homosexuality as a naturally occuring difference or variation of human sexuality that's no better and no worse than heterosexuality?

 

[80sU2isBest]

um, yes 80s, i was offering my thoughts/opinions.

In offering your thoughts and opinions, you were projecting your desires and priorities upon Ben, and in effect were saying "this is how it is for Ben", when the only evidence we have (Ben's own words) do not support your desires and priorities.

 

[Irvine511]

In offering your thoughts and opinions, you were projecting your desires and priorities upon Ben, and in effect were saying "this is how it is for Ben", when the only evidence we have (Ben's own words) do not support your desires and priorities.

but i've been there.

and i saw the piece last night. really felt for him. seemed like such a good kid, trying so hard to be good, and the one little thing he can't change about himself is enough to negate each and every good thing about him, in the eyes of his parents and in the eyes of what he conceives of as God.

 

[80sU2isBest]

but i've been there.

and i saw the piece last night. really felt for him. seemed like such a good kid, trying so hard to be good, and the one little thing he can't change about himself is enough to negate each and every good thing about him, in the eyes of his parents and in the eyes of what he conceives of as God.

Maybe you have, but why do you assume that all experiences will turn out as yours did?

In your mind, is there zero possibility that Ben's words actually reflect his true feelings?

 

[Irvine511]

Maybe you have, but why do you assume that all experiences will turn out as yours did?

In your mind, is there zero possibility that Ben's words actually reflect his true feelings?

i think the statistical success rate (or lack of success rate) of these camps belies what Ben says are his true feelings.

if you're going to beat this against the wall, yes OF COURSE there's a chance Ben will successfully conduct a heterosexual relationship. however, if Ben has to work (and if 8 months at such a camp isn't work i don't know what you'd call it) to find women attractive "enough," based upon both personal experience and the experiences of others, my instinct tells me that it's not going to work out.

 

[melon]

In your mind, is there zero possibility that Ben's words actually reflect his true feelings?

Sure. Just like when a teenager says that he's in love with someone, and parents say that he's too young to know that's he's in love. The parents are probably right, in that instance, and yet, we think that Ben is somehow going to remain a monolith and not change his mind on this subject.

Guaranteed: Ben did not make this decision on his own. Wanna bet his parents think being gay is an abominable sin? I don't know many people who have supportive parents and choose to go to those kind of camps anyway.

Melon

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

s to Irvine511 and Moonlit_Angel

.

Also, to MrsSpringsteen, too. I just never understood the whole concept of trying to "change" who people can love. Once again, would straight people appreciate it if gay people tried to make them turn gay? If the answer is no, then don't try and make gay people straight! Just leave them alone, let them love who they want to love! That kind of thing should be nobody else's beeswax, anyway.

Also, meant to mention this earlier, but I, too, would like to give a and to you, Irvine, for helping out like you are . You'll do a great job with those kids, I know you will.

Angela

 

[80sU2isBest]

however, if Ben has to work (and if 8 months at such a camp isn't work i don't know what you'd call it) to find women attractive "enough,"

As for the "work" comment, you are now attempting to redefine what you originally said. You originally said:

"poor girl that marries Ben -- must make you feel really good to know that your husband has to try really hard to find you sexually attractive."

The way that statement is worded makes it seem as if it applies to meeting a girl and having to work at finding her attractive. It doesn't seem to mean that the work was the camp itself.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Guaranteed: Ben did not make this decision on his own. Wanna bet his parents think being gay is an abominable sin? I don't know many people who have supportive parents and choose to go to those kind of camps anyway.

Melon

But that's my point. You can't guarantee anything about Ben, because you don't know his story. How do you know he didn't enroll himself; Is there something in there that I missed?

 

[BVS]

In offering your thoughts and opinions, you were projecting your desires and priorities upon Ben, and in effect were saying "this is how it is for Ben", when the only evidence we have (Ben's own words) do not support your desires and priorities.

You did the same exact thing. You changed

I think I'm attracted to women enough right now

to mean look he must be cured.

If anyone has to think about it or say well I'm attracted ENOUGH to do this has a problem.